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[原创-历史] 为什么中国这个现存的最古老的文明,没有像其他文明一样被灭绝?

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发表于 2019-7-5 23:20:51 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式
本帖最后由 龙腾网翻译版务 于 2019-7-7 09:09 编辑 龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com

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Why was China, the oldest existing civilization that has preserved it's culture, never wiped out like all the other ancient civilizations?

为什么中国这个现存的最古老的文明,没有像其他文明一样被灭绝?



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Alexander Tan
I will address each part point by point:
China is not the oldest civilization: Preceding it were the Sumerians (including the other Mesopotamian empires), the Indus Valley, as well as Egypt.
However, under the assumption that you mean oldest existing civilization as the longest continually lasting native culture, and the for a civilization to be wiped out is to have its culture drastically changed by foreign powers, then this is why:

中华文明不是最古老的文明:在它之前有苏美尔文明,古印度文明,以及古埃及文明。
但是,如果你指的是现存的,最古老的,未被其他外部势力改变的原生文明,那中华文明当然是的。



dsquard
Chinese civilization is ancient, but why is it considered to be the oldest living civilization, whereas other ancient civilizations, such as Egypt and Rome are not?
Why is this claim always made with regards to China?* I have a very limited understanding of Chinese history, but I find it hard to believe this kind of claim. The website seems to attribute this claim to China's written history, but hasn't the writing system changed over 3,500 years?

中华文明的确很古老,但为什么它会被认为是现存的最古老的文明?而其他文明,诸如埃及和罗马却不是呢?
为什么每次讨论中华文明时都会出现这种说法?虽然我对中国历史的了解不多,但我很难相信这种说法。一些网站将原因归咎于中国的文字,但中国的文字系统在过去的3500多年、里,真的没有发生过变化吗?

Handsomeboh
As the source told you, China is generally considered the "longest continuous civilisation" in the world today. The earliest uncontroversially attested centralised Chinese polity was the Shang Dynasty in 1500BC. By this point, Egypt was in its 19th dynasty and the peak of its power, so it's not unfair to say that China was certainly not the first 'great' civilisation. It certainly predates the Romans though, and arguably the Classical Hellenistic civilisation as well.

中国是公认的当今世界上“持续时间最长的文明”。
早在公元前1500年的商朝,中国就已经建立了中央集权体制,这一点是毫无争议的。
虽然在这个时间点上,埃及已经进入了第19个王朝,并达到了权力的顶峰,但中华文明依然早于罗马以及古希腊文明。

The difference is that the Chinese civilisation has basically survived unscathed since then, while all the above have been displaced over time. Shang Dynasty China was obviously extremely different from modern China, but the writing system developed during the Shang Dynasty is essentially completely legible today. With minimal training, a well-educated native Chinese speaker could easily learn to discern between the characters used during the period.

不同之处在于,从那时起,中华文明就开始蓬勃地发展着,一直延续到今天,而其他的古文明都消逝在了时间的长河中。
虽然商代中国与现代中国有着明显的不同,但从商代发展起来的文字体系一直沿用到今日。只要母语为汉语,且受过良好教育的的人稍加训练,就能很容易地学会辨别古时候的汉字。



handsomeboh
The cultural history of Egypt is one characterised by change. They were aggressively Hellenised by the Ptolemaic Empire, then just slightly Latinised by the Romans, then Hellenised again by the Byzantines, then fully Arabicised by the Caliphate, then they all switched to Shia under the Fatimids, then they switched back to Sunni, then the Mamluks came with their Caucasian and Transoxianan traditions (which Chaney & Blaydes (2012) argues is the most long lasting economic impact), then they were partially Turkicised by the Ottomans (more architecturally than anything), then the French and Brits came. In general it's been a pastiche of everything but the original Egyptian cultural base.

埃及的文明发展几经变迁。传统的埃及在托勒密王朝建立后开始希腊化,然后又被说拉丁语的罗马人征服,接着又被拜占庭占领,再然后被阿拉伯的哈里发掌控,埃及人在阿拉伯法蒂玛王朝时期短暂地加入了什叶派,然后很快又换回了逊尼派,紧接着,钦察突厥人和高加索人在埃及建立了马穆鲁克王朝,然后他们又被突厥化的奥斯曼帝国吞并,最后又成为了法国人和英国人的殖民地。
总的来说,埃及已经失去了原生文化,成为了各种外来文化融合下的大杂烩

Gwenavere
Chinese culture from the Shang dynasty to present. Where you have had invasions, those invaders have adopted Chinese culture and customs rather than adapting the Chinese to their own. This is in sharp contrast to the example of, say, Egypt, where the indigenous culture was more or less completely supplanted by outside influences multiple times.

从商朝至今,中华文明并没有中断的。中国曾经遭受侵略,但这些侵略者接受了中国的文化和习俗,而不是让中国适应侵略者自己的文化和习俗。
这与埃及的例子形成了鲜明的对比,埃及的原生文化已经被各种外来文化所取代。



Of course the longevity of the Han can and often is exaggerated. Like all peoples, the defining characteristics of the Han have continually evolved and mutated over the years from both indigenous developments and as inputs from surrounding peoples were adopted; the beliefs and culture of the prehistoric "Huaxia" were very different from the second-century "Hanren", just as the latter's is very different from the Han of today or even a century ago. however, in a comparative sense the Han do show a marked degree of continuousness into the distant past to an identifiably ethnic, linguistic, cultural, political, and to a lesser degree religious predecessor of the Han ethnically. In other words, the natural progression of the ancient Huaxia into the Han of today is visible to an extent more so than almost all other peoples.

同其他所有民族一样,汉文化也在不断的演变和革新,既有本土的发明创造,也有向周围各民族的借鉴;
举个例子,公元前“华夏”的信仰和文化,与汉朝时期的信仰和文化有很大的不同。
而汉朝时期的信仰和文化,又与今天甚至一个世纪前汉民族的信仰和文化又存在着很大的不同。
然而,汉民族确实可以追溯到遥远的过去,它的前身是一个可辨认的,拥有独立语言、文化、政治和宗教的民族。
换句话说,从古代的华夏族发展到今天的汉族,其发展脉络几乎比其他所有民族都更为清晰明显。




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KCAugg
But the critical difference was that the Chinese script was not dependent on pronunciation like their Roman counterpart, and therefore, even as Han's regional dialects diverged into unintelligible languages communication across the lands could still be easily maintained through the written word. Decrees or books emanating from Beijing would read exactly the same to Chinese living in the coastal Guangdong or the oasis cities of Xinjiang, communication across completely different language families was even possible to a lesser extent when the Koreans and Japanese adopted the Chinese script.

汉字不像罗马文字那样依赖于发音,因此,即使汉语分化成了各种难以理解的方言,不同地域之间的人们依然可以通过书面文字来维持交流。
对于生活在沿海广东省和新疆自治区的中国人来说,来自北京的法令或书籍读起来完全一样。
另外,韩国和日本也采用了汉字,所以尽管几个国家之间语系不同,但通过书面汉字交流还是没问题的

As for the Mandate of Heaven, I don't think that the concept was very instrumental to the maintenance of a united Chinese state. It was created, and primarily used, merely to legitimize the overthrow of one dynasty and its replacement by a different one.

至于天命,我认为这个概念对于维护一个统一的中国并没有太大的帮助。
天命这个概念,更多的是新王朝在推翻旧王朝时,用来强化政权合法性的说辞。



The circumstances of collapse: The fall of the Han dynasty and the collapse of the Western Roman Empire were very different. In a way, the fall of the Han dynasty was much more a case of internal fragmentation. External invasion certainly played a part, but a smaller one.

(2)汉朝的灭亡和西罗马帝国的崩溃是不同的。
从某种程度上说,汉朝的灭亡只是因为内部分裂。而西罗马帝国则亡于蛮族入侵

watermark0n
In regards to no. 1, I think you may be overplaying your point. The people of the Roman empire did generally refer to themselves as "Roman" after a while of being integrated into society, and Latin was spoken by most inhabitants in the west, and Greek in the east. The Byzantines themselves would continue to call themselves "Roman" well into their history

楼上的,我认为你的观点有些夸大其词。
在罗马帝国后期,人们也普遍称呼自己为“罗马人”。
只不过当时罗马帝国西部的大多数居民说拉丁语,而东部的居民则说希腊语。
罗马帝国灭亡后,作为继承者的拜占庭人则继续自称“罗马人”

But who knows what would have happened should they have been under union as long as the Chinese had? And perhaps if China hadn't recovered from one of its periods of disunion, we'd now be talking about a hodgepodge of totally distinct ethnicites as well.

谁知道呢,如果罗马像中国人那样,一直处于统一的状态之下,历史将会走向何方呢?
如果中国没有从大分裂时期中挣脱出来,现在的中国也将是分裂成许多不同的民族国家



slvrbullet87
Would the fact that after the Han fell, the eventual new empire that rose from it, The Jin Dynasty, ruled over basically the same land and people be one of the main reasons it was considered continuous?

汉朝灭亡后,晋朝作为新帝国崛起———统治着曾经属于汉朝的土地和人民,这会不会是人们认定中华文明得以延续的主要原因之一?

watermark0n
The Jin dynasty itself was sort of short lived (sure, it was around for a century, but that's peanuts in Chinese terms). It's kind of easy to forget, honestly. Basically, you had an Early Zhou dynasty, under which central control later effectively fragmented into the Warring states period, reunion under the harsh, legalist Qin dynasty, what was considered the height of Chinese civilization for a long time afterward under the Han dynasty, disunion under the Three Kingdoms period, the Jin dynasty, another period of disunion under the Northern and Southern dynasties, a short reunion under the Sui followed by a long golden age under the Tang, a final period of near total fragmentation under the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period, another golden age under the "Northern Song" dynasty, until foreigners conquered northern China and founded the Jin dynasty (with the "Southern" Song continuing on in the south), the first (and, arguably, only) total foreign conquest of China under the Yuan dynasty (what the Mongols called themselves), followed by the native Ming dynasty, and, finally, the Qing's, who were technically foreigners, but were had been heavily sinicized, and are often seen as more hyper-Confucian than the Ming.

晋朝本身就是一个短命的王朝。
中国在周朝后分裂为春秋战国,然后在奉行严酷法家思想的秦朝下统一,汉朝被认为是中国文明史的第一个高峰,然后又是三国,晋,南北朝时期分裂。
在隋朝的短暂统一后,中国在唐朝时达到了黄金时代。
五代十国是中国最后一个大分裂时期,然后就是宋朝,金朝,元朝和明朝。
清朝的统治者虽然从本质上讲是异族,但已经被中国严重同化,并且比明朝更重视儒家。

Basically, China was together for much longer than it was apart, and this kept the people from dividing into multiple different identities. Chinese culture mostly absorbed and sinicized what conquerers came along, instead of the reverse. Europe, on the other hand, was pretty much only united during Roman times, which shorter than some of those individual dynasties I mentioned above,

基本上,中国统一的时间要比分裂的时间长得多,这就避免了中国人因为长期的分裂而形成各种不同的身份认知。另一方面,欧洲只有在罗马时代才是统一的,而罗马分裂的时间要比统一的时间长很多,



Aaron Dodo
China’s geological position makes it the most isolated of the four cradles. China’s way over to the east with the world’s largest mountain range blocking it off entirely.
The Chinese civilization originated not from a single tribe of people, but a combination/collaboration between people. “Being Chinese” has been since the very beginning defined by cultural agreement instead of blood. Hence collaboration and collectivism were the cornerstone of the entire Chinese civilization.

中国的地理位置使其成为四个大文明中最孤立的一个。通往中国的道路被世界上最大的山脉完全阻隔。
中华文明并非起源于某个单一民族,而是多个部落联合组成的。
所以,“中国人”这个概念从一开始就是文化认同而非血缘认同。合作和集体主义是整个中华文明的基石。

Also due to collectivism, difference and specialization were embraced instead of feared, balance and compromises were much preferred over extremes and blind resistance. Add to the fact that the Chinese are pragmatic/agnostic, this makes the Chinese civilization extremely adaptable, absorbing every outside influence that came its way and turn them into part of the Chinese culture itself. It doesn’t just “tolerate”, it “absorbs and grows bigger” from outside influences.
The Chinese were by definition strategic (originated from collaboration of the “strategic/civilized tribes”). Ultimately, the Chinese adapts to and appreciates reality, while many faded civilizations attempted to bend reality to their ideal image. This “humble” attitude allowed the Chinese civilization to not only survive, but grow stronger the longer it survived.

同时,由于集体主义,人们会包容彼此的差异,而不是感到恐惧,人们更喜欢平衡和妥协而不是极端和盲目的冲动。
再加上中国人是实用主义者和不可知论者,这使得中华文明具有极强的适应力,他会吸收一切外来文化,并将其转化为中国文化本身的一部分。
所以,中国人适应并欣赏现实,而许多衰落的文明则试图把现实改造成他们理想的模样。
这种“谦虚”的态度不仅让中华文明生存下来,而且不断发展壮大。



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发表于 2019-7-7 10:29:01 | 显示全部楼层

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有些说法挺有意思
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发表于 2019-7-7 11:12:22 | 显示全部楼层

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可以说地理隔绝是最重要的一个因素
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发表于 2019-7-7 11:48:06 | 显示全部楼层

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实用主义好评龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com
的确如此龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com
而且我们不盲目龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com
就是在封建时期
龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com对于鬼神宗教之类
龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com都有人有疑问
而不是如西方那样”上帝化“
在中国,宗教是服务于王权的
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发表于 2019-7-7 12:34:32 | 显示全部楼层

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宛城太守 发表于 2019-7-7 11:12龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com
可以说地理隔绝是最重要的一个因素
龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com
如果地理隔绝是重要因素,为什么南美和北美的文明没有保存下来呢?
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发表于 2019-7-7 12:53:35 | 显示全部楼层

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最后一个说法挺有道理的,不知道是不是中国人写的!龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com
世人都认为自由主义是最包容的,却不知道以个人主义和私有产权为核心的自由主义只能不断放大和强调不同群体之间的差异,进而导致误解、恐惧甚至仇恨,这也是西方社会如今愈发分裂的根本原因。一味地纵容不同群体的自私心,根本达不到“兼容并蓄”的目的!
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发表于 2019-7-7 15:59:36 | 显示全部楼层

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无非是血缘和文化,有时候是血缘,有时候是文化,
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发表于 2019-7-7 16:20:18 | 显示全部楼层

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本帖最后由 dalian433 于 2019-7-7 16:43 编辑 龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com
宛城太守 发表于 2019-7-7 11:12
龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com可以说地理隔绝是最重要的一个因素
龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com
地理隔绝可能有一些影响,但显然不是主要因素,其实欧洲人本身区别也不大,至少不比中国各地人种区别更大,在古代来说,在欧洲地理大发现之前,在欧洲、美洲,非洲等范围内不也是一种相对的地理隔绝么?绝对的地理隔绝中国远远也不是,为啥欧洲美洲等都没有形成中国这样的大一统的习惯?
龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com早在两三千年前的诗经里就有普天之下莫非王土,率土之滨莫非王臣的概念,而这种理念又随着儒家学说的兴盛和孔子的编订深入到了几乎每一个读书人心里,左右时局的也只可能是这些读书人,在所有当权者的心目中都凝聚了这样一个大一统的观念并自觉不不自觉的会朝那个方向努力。加上秦朝时期文字的统一,进一步减少了这种隔阂。龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com

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发表于 2019-7-7 18:13:15 龙腾移动网页版 | 显示全部楼层

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不是所有文明都能有幸拥有秦始皇这种顶配大boss的,而且外国人居然认为喜马拉雅山是中国的保护屏障,这座山是你们的保护屏障才对吧
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发表于 2019-7-7 19:14:52 | 显示全部楼层

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个人认为中华文明能一直延续在于我们发展出了具有强大组织能力的文化,任何异族入侵都会发现依靠自己的文化无法统御这么大规模且复杂多样的人口,只好选择承续中原文化,最终被同化。
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发表于 2019-7-7 19:26:09 | 显示全部楼层

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因为大一统的文字和文化。
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发表于 2019-7-7 19:36:29 | 显示全部楼层
宛城太守 发表于 2019-7-7 11:12
龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com可以说地理隔绝是最重要的一个因素
龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com
中国被称为王国之国,如果说地理隔绝,也是我们先人打出来的格局,汉字功不可没,中国十里不同音,方言数万种,即使建国后普及普通话,动用了全部的现代科技手段,直到现在都无法统一,可见如果文字不统一的话,中国早四分五裂了,至少是十几个国家。汉字所蕴含的汉族思想把五湖四海,天南海北的人统一成汉人!
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发表于 2019-7-8 07:47:10 | 显示全部楼层
文字肯定是最重要的一环,文字代表了历史、思想,同一理念。
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发表于 2019-7-8 10:21:17 | 显示全部楼层
天下九州 得而一统
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发表于 2019-7-8 11:19:13 | 显示全部楼层
所以西方处心积虑也要毁灭我们
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发表于 2019-7-8 11:54:59 | 显示全部楼层
宛城太守 发表于 2019-7-7 11:12龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com
可以说地理隔绝是最重要的一个因素

龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com数一数中国周边消失了多少民族吧,他们都是自愿腾地方给我们的么?不是被打跑了就是被杀光了,还真当我们汉族是好欺负的呢啊。
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发表于 2019-7-8 12:25:22 | 显示全部楼层
宛城太守 发表于 2019-7-7 11:12龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com
可以说地理隔绝是最重要的一个因素

龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com说的跟没有地理隔绝,欧洲人能打得过中国北面的游牧民族一样。
龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com隔绝一个弱鸡有啥用?龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com
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发表于 2019-7-8 12:38:29 | 显示全部楼层
文字与文化。。。。。地理嘛,绝对不是主要因素
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发表于 2019-7-8 18:58:44 | 显示全部楼层
宛城太守 发表于 2019-7-7 11:12
龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com可以说地理隔绝是最重要的一个因素
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完全不认同。
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发表于 2019-7-8 19:03:12 | 显示全部楼层
不管怎么说,现实就是这样!古罗马、古巴比伦、古印度、古埃及都不存了,而中国一直在~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com
我认为中国的孤独存在,是一个意外。在发展和进化史上,意外才是闪光点!没有意外就没有发展。
龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com
要论“意外”的生产,主因还是思想体系。我们这块土地上,就产生了天下大同的思想,其它地区就木有。龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com
地理说不能说完全错误,但绝对是辅因。
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发表于 2019-7-8 20:43:57 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 CHNBamboo 于 2019-7-8 20:46 编辑
龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com
龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com我前几天和一帮子印度阿三说到这个:中国是连续不断的文明,现存最古老的。
龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com那些阿三磕了药一样反驳我。 = =龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com
这个话题以后可以多发发文章,最好是用英文。太多人对中华文明没有了解,印度人提到中华文明就要扯一下佛教,说什么中华文明受印度影响巨大。看不下去。
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发表于 2019-7-8 21:16:24 | 显示全部楼层
很认同最后一个网友的留言。由于儒家文化的先进性,中原地区即使短暂沦为少数民族统治,也会被儒家文化强大的同化性所吸收和包容...
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发表于 2019-7-9 02:50:25 | 显示全部楼层
诸子百家和文字代表的哲学比西方先进太多了。
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