现在中亚国家的人民是如何看待苏联的？好、坏、中立、荣耀、耻辱，我对此很好奇
How do Central Asian countries learn about the Soviet unx? good, bad, neutral, moment of glory, shame, I'm curious about this
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我曾经和一个来自乌兹别克斯坦的女孩约会
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How do Central Asian countries learn about the Soviet unx? good, bad, neutral, moment of glory, shame, I'm curious about this
现在中亚国家的人民是如何看待苏联的？好、坏、中立、荣耀、耻辱，我对此很好奇
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i used to date a girl from uzbekistan (although i think she was ethnically tajik) and her mom had a little bust of stalin in their home. i always thought that was interesting
我曾经和一个来自乌兹别克斯坦的女孩约会（虽然我认为她是塔吉克族人），她的妈妈在家里放了一个斯大林的半身像。
There's a tragedy about people who lived in the Soviet unx and having nostalgia about those times. They will tell you that it was a wonderful time during that period, that even Stalin was good, etc. And the explanation is quite simple: they were young at that time. That's valid for any generation.
曾在苏联生活过的人怀念那个时代是一种悲剧。他们会告诉你，那是一段美好的时光，甚至斯大林也很好，等等。原因很简单：那时他们还很年轻。这一点对任何一代人都适用。
lots of these people in rural areas received heavy subsidies and benefitted from welfare programs. When the Soviet unx collapsed, tons of people became dirt poor, with no retirement, little health care and so on
很多农村地区的人都获得了大量补贴，并从福利计划中受益。苏联解体后，大量人口沦为赤贫，没有退休金，几乎没有医疗保健，等等。
No matter what you think of the soviet unx very few people lived during the collapse that lived under Stalin, and the USSR went through a massive destalinization after 1953-56. And altough I am no tankie, it is a matter of fact that the collapse of the USSR was a humanitarian crisis, and many people living in many of the previous soviet countries today have a lower quality of life than before.
The collapse of the soviet unx lead to mafioso capitalism and oligarchy we have today.
不管你对苏联有什么看法，在苏联解体期间有过生活在斯大林统治下的经历的人寥寥无几，而且苏联在 1953-56 年之后经历了大规模的去斯大林化。虽然我不是亲共人士，但事实上，苏联的解体是一场人道主义危机，如今生活在许多前苏联国家的许多人的生活质量比以前低了。
苏联解体导致了我们今天的黑手党资本主义和寡头政治。
We tend to think of the Soviet unx as having been an entirely failed experiment, but, as you point out, there are a lot of people who might have had it worse without that system. This disproportionately advantaged some of the poorest and most disenfranchised but did so at the expense of never creating enough of a bounty to form a solid middle class. But, in point of fact, the fishmongers along the Aral Sea probably weren’t complaining when the Soviets were shipping fish in from very far away for them to clean and pack as the Aral Sea had begun to dry up — a job is a job, to a starving person.
我们倾向于认为苏联是一次完全失败的实验，但正如你所指出的，如果没有苏联的制度，很多人的情况可能会更糟。这种制度使一些最贫穷和最被剥夺权利的人获得了极大的好处，但其代价是从未创造出足够的财富来形成一个稳固的中产阶级。但事实上，当咸海开始干涸，苏联人从很远的地方运来鱼让他们清洗和包装时，咸海沿岸的鱼贩可能并不会抱怨--对饥饿的人来说，有一份工就是一份工。
It is an obxtive fact for us in Central Asia that we would be very similar to Afghanistan, Pakistan in living standards without the Soviet unx so most people tolerate the time.
对我们中亚人来说，一个客观事实是，如果没有苏联，我们的生活水平将与阿富汗、巴基斯坦非常相似，所以大多数人都能忍受这个时代。
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It's also worth recognizing that this collapse and crisis was mainly caused by Soviet policies and economics. The standard of living was better for a lot of people before the collapse, but by the '80s, this was provided for with a combination of large loans from the West and material exploitation of Eastern Europe. Their agriculture was so inefficient that they also had to waste tons of money importing grain from the U.S., and this was a country that used to be a net exporter of grain.
Sadly, the USSR had no way out of their economic and fiscal mess.
同样值得承认的是，这次崩溃和危机主要是由苏联的政策和经济造成的。在崩溃之前，很多人的生活水平有所提高，但到了 80 年代，这是通过获取西方的大量贷款和对东欧的物质剥削相结合来实现的。他们的农业效率极低，不得不浪费大量资金从美国进口粮食，而这个国家曾经是粮食净出口国。
可悲的是，苏联无法摆脱经济和财政困境。
Their agricultural struggles were no secret. Khrushchev's famous corn experiment comes to mind. He saw the problems, but couldn't come up with a solution.
他们的农业斗争并不是什么秘密。我想到了赫鲁晓夫著名的玉米实验。他看到了问题，但却想不出解决办法。
Yeah I was about to say this. They have always relied on the export of oil and gas. They could've nationalized their energy sector and kept everything else capitalist and they would've been way better off. Norway was also very poor but basically has that policy (i.e. mostly nationalized energy sector) and is obviously much richer and developed now. The distribution of wealth/resources isn't the problem in Comm...... Like you said, tt's the entirely of the system that is completely inefficient.
是的，我正想这么说。他们一直依赖石油和天然气出口。他们本可以将能源部门国有化，其他一切保持资本主义性质，这样他们就会过得更好。挪威也曾非常贫穷，但基本上也采取了这种政策（即大部分能源部门国有化），现在显然要富裕和发达得多。财富/资源的分配并不是共产主义的问题所在。就像你说的，问题完全出在效率低下的制度上。
The collapse of the soviet unx lead to mafioso capitalism and oligarchy we have today.
A lot of post-soviet states adopted western political institutions and are now doing EXTREMELY well and people are much better off than they were under Comm..... (Romania, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Kazakhstan). So it's not all bad, in terms of economics.
“苏联的解体导致了我们今天的黑手党资本主义和寡头政治。”
许多后苏联国家采用了西方的政治体制，现在发展得非常好，人们的生活比共产主义时期好得多（罗马尼亚、爱沙尼亚、立陶宛、拉脱维亚、哈萨克斯坦）。因此，就经济而言，这并不全是坏事。
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Also the undeniable fact that things were better, quality of life wise, in the Soviet unx that in most of the separated countries, the entire post-soviet space saw an explosion on Child trafficking for example, poverty skyrocketed and jobs disappeared, most of them haven't recovered even today and probably never will, as their populations get older and start shrinking.
Also as a consequence of centralization in the Soviet unx a lot of the infrastructure built on those countries served to connect them to Russia, now most of that is useless but still maintained which is a drain on public resources that they haven't been able to solve.
不可否认的事实是，大多数独立出去的国家在苏联时代的生活质量更好，例如，在整个后苏联时期，贩卖儿童现象激增，贫困人口激增，工作机会消失，其中大多数国家至今仍未恢复，而且随着人口老龄化和开始萎缩，可能永远也不会恢复。
此外，由于苏联的中央集权，这些国家的许多基础设施都是为了与俄罗斯连接而修建的，现在这些基础设施大多已无用武之地，但仍在维护，这就造成了公共资源的消耗，而他们却无法解决这个问题。
The 90s were really difficult for post-Soviet countries (the 80s were also difficult, that's when and why the dissolution of USSR started). But ain't no way today is worse than any of the Soviet periods. I'm telling you as a citizen of a post-Soviet country. Today you don't have to wait hours in line for bread, hours for milk, etc. Today you don't have to wait years to buy a car. Today you don't need to give your half year salary to buy a TV (or let's say a PC, if we were focusing on present days). Today you're not scared to enter a public WC because of the smell and hygiene. And I can add many more to this list.
90年代对于后苏联国家来说确实很困难（80年代也很困难，那是苏联开始解体的时间和原因）。但到了今天，这些国家绝对不比苏联时期更糟糕。我以一个后苏联国家的公民的身份告诉你。今天，你不必为了面包、牛奶等而排几个小时的队。今天，你不必为了买一辆汽车而等待数年。今天，你不需要拿出半年的工资来购买电视（或者说，如果我们着眼于现在的话，可以说是一台个人电脑）。如今，你不再因为气味和卫生问题而害怕进入公共厕所。我还可以在这个列表中添加更多内容。
Entire post-soviet space? You sure? Have you visited Warsaw, Tallinn, Vilnius or Riga recently? Salaries are similar to the rest of the EU and unemployment much lower than Southern European countries.
90's were difficult, of course, everything had to be started from scratch but the progress is probably the greatest in terms of quality of life in the past 20 years worldwide.
所有后苏联国家？你确定？你最近去过华沙、塔林、维尔纽斯或里加吗？这里的工资水平与欧盟其他国家差不多，失业率也比南欧国家低得多。
90年代是艰难的，当然，一切都必须从头开始，但就生活质量而言，这些地方的进步可能是过去20年全球范围内最大的。
Why are you bringing Poland into this? What does it have to do with post-soviet republics?
为什么要把波兰也拉进来？它跟后苏联共和国有什么关系？
My grandma was young during WW2 and Italian fascism, she never told me it was a wonderful time, not even remotely.
“原因很简单：那时他们还很年轻。”
我奶奶年轻时正值第二次世界大战和意大利法西斯主义时期，她从来没有告诉过我那是一段美好的时光，甚至连一点都没有。
I can remember my grandma defending Mussolini into her old age. She would have been a teenager when the war ended. My grandfather was more sanguine about the whole time.
Though I suspect part of it that they ended up moving to Canada afterwards due to lack of opportunity in Italy. Lack of opportunity for them under the post-war structure, makes it easier to feel that the 'good times' were probably better than they were.
我还记得我的祖母一直到晚年还在为墨索里尼辩护。战争结束时，她才十几岁。我的祖父对整个战争期间的情况比较乐观。
尽管我怀疑部分原因是他们后来因为在意大利缺乏机会而搬到了加拿大。在战后结构下，他们缺乏机会，因此更容易感觉到当初的“美好时光”可能比现在更好。
Soviet Indutries were much bigger than any industries these countries ever had. The Soviets build many factories and labs in these countries which provided good-pay jobs. No matter what you say about the Soviet unx, they were always very focused on advanced science and industry. When Soviet unx collapsed, those factories shut down and these countries became deindustrialized again.
苏联的工业比这些国家的任何工业都要大得多。苏联在这些国家建立了许多工厂和实验室，提供了高薪工作。无论你如何评价苏联，他们始终非常重视先进的科学和工业。苏联解体后，这些工厂倒闭，这些国家再次陷入去工业化状态。
Here in Kazakhstan, we learn of what the Soviet leadership had done wrong: the 1930s famine, prominent Kazakh figures which were executed during the Red Terror, the 1950s Khrushchev's Virgin Lands campaign which left a lot of fertile soil unusable, how Kazakhs were starting to become less and less prominent in the country's population due to migration from other republics, about how Brezhnev's reign was a time of stagnation and how under Gorbachev an economic crisis occurred, also, obviously, about the 1986 protests (Jeltoqsan)
Though, as in many other places, many remember the Soviet unx with fondness.
在哈萨克斯坦，我们了解到苏联领导人做了哪些错事： 20 世纪 30 年代的饥荒、在红色恐怖中被处决的哈萨克族杰出人士、20 世纪 50 年代赫鲁晓夫的处女地运动导致大量肥沃的土地无法使用、由于从其他共和国的移民，哈萨克族在全国人口中的地位开始变得越来越低、勃列日涅夫统治时期是一个停滞不前的时期、戈尔巴乔夫统治时期发生了经济危机，以及 1986 年的抗议活动。
不过，与许多其他地方一样，许多人都怀念苏联。
It's a common sentiment among post Soviet countries, tbf. Probably except Baltic states.
说句实话，这是后苏联国家的普遍看法。可能波罗的海国家除外。
I spent some time in Hungary during college and the Hungarians I interacted with did not have fond memories of the Soviets.
我大学期间在匈牙利呆过一段时间，与我交往的匈牙利人对苏联并没有美好的回忆。
We call only those countries that were part of the Soviet unx (Russia, Kazakhstan, Latvia) post-Soviet, not Warsaw Bloc countries like Hungary, Poland, etc., post-Soviet. "We" are citizens of the Soviet republics.
我们只称那些曾经属于苏联的国家（俄罗斯、哈萨克斯坦、拉脱维亚）为后苏联国家，而不称匈牙利、波兰等华沙集团国家为后苏联国家。“我们”指的是苏联加盟共和国的公民。
In Uzbekistan, where i am from, the commonly accepted view is that the Soviet era was a time of colonial rule. Yet, there's a notable portion of the population, especially those aged 60+, who remember the Soviet period with nostalgia, recalling how things were cheap and people were kind to each other.
在我的家乡乌兹别克斯坦，人们普遍认为苏联时期是殖民统治时期。然而，也有相当一部分人，尤其是 60 岁以上的老人，怀念苏联时期，回忆起当时物价低廉、人与人之间和睦相处的情景。
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That's just old people in general, recalling their youth
老人普遍喜欢美化他们青春时期的回忆
Not necessarily. One of my relatives grew up in Ukraine and was a teenager when the Soviet unx collapsed. I asked him what his parents thought of the Soviet unx and Russia, and though neither said they were particularly interested in going back, it was nice that they knew they would at least have some clothes, enough food not to starve, and a place to live. When you don’t have a lot in the first place, having that kind of stability can be very powerful.
不一定。我的一位亲戚在乌克兰长大，苏联解体时他才十几岁。我问他父母对苏联和俄罗斯有什么看法，虽然他们都没有说自己特别想回去，但他们知道自己至少会有一些衣服、足够的食物不至于挨饿，还有一个住的地方，这很好。当你本来就不富裕的时候，拥有这种稳定的生活会非常重要。
But also legit reaction when going from socialism to crony capitalism.
Downvote all you want, it is a well documented fact that capitalism makes relationships more transactional (people were kinder to each other in soviet unx, without ulterior motive) and lack of profit incentive makes some goods cheaper (but often unavailable, especially varieties).
Bring the downvotes, morons
“老人普遍喜欢美化他们青春时期的回忆”
但这也是对于从社会主义到裙带资本主义合理的反应。
随你们怎么“点踩”，有据可查的事实是，资本主义让人与人之间的关系更加交易化（在苏联，人们彼此更加友好，没有不可告人的动机），缺乏利润激励让一些商品更加便宜（但往往买不到，尤其是品种）。
给我点踩吧，白痴们
Don't demagogue this. The phenomenon of being kind to each other is real, but it comes from societies being fairly closed and sheltered, without a lot of immigration or exposure to the wider world.
That same niceness existed in 1950s America under capitalism (though within racial lines: white-to-white, and black-to-black). I went to East and West Germany before the wall came down, and the East Germans were nicer and more sheltered. The police state enforced order (very low street crime, etc.) and there was a kind of naivete and homogeneity that made them nicer and almost childlike in ways they could not perceive themselves until competition with the West came in, bringing social disorder due to greater freedoms including the freedom to fail. Then they realized what they had lost. I've also been to Cuba and experienced the same thing. To be clear: Cuba is crony Comm...... The "crony" part is irrelevant to the niceness, whether it is capitalism or Comm......
Tl;dr: your analysis of a real phenomenon is superficial and cuts along the wrong conceptual lines. Niceness thrives in a bubble of social order.
没必要这么激动。当时人与人之间相互友善的现象是真实存在的，但这是由于社会相当封闭和受到庇护，没有大量移民或接触到更广阔的世界。
在 20 世纪 50 年代资本主义统治下的美国，同样存在这种友善现象（不过是在种族界限之内：白人对白人，黑人对黑人）。在隔离墙倒塌之前，我去过东德和西德，东德人更友善、更受庇护。警察国家强制维持秩序（街头犯罪率极低，等等），有一种天真和同质性，这让他们更善良，几乎像孩子一样，他们无法感知自己的这一点，直到与西方的竞争到来，由于更大的自由，包括失败的自由，带来了社会混乱。然后，他们才意识到自己失去了什么。我也去过古巴，经历过同样的事情。说白了，古巴就是任人唯亲的共产主义。不管是资本主义还是共产主义，“裙带”的部分都与好坏无关。
总结：你对一个真实现象的分析是肤浅的，是沿着错误的概念路线进行的。善良在社会秩序的泡沫中茁壮成长。
USSR had a lot of internal immigration, between Russia proper and the Stan countries (hence whole bunch of ethnic Russians got stranded there after the collapse). "Friendship of the peoples" was one of the declared pillar of Soviet ideology and somehow it seems to have worked (tensions between ethnic groups started to rise in the 80ies and then resulted in a bunch of civil wars, massacres and lesser disorders during the collapse).
Edit: I am not pro-USSR, just sharing the fact that I always found puzzling.
苏联有大量的国内移民，包括俄罗斯本土和斯坦国家之间的移民（因此苏联解体后大批俄罗斯族人滞留在那里）。“各民族友好”是苏联意识形态的支柱之一，不知何故，它似乎起了作用（民族间的紧张关系在 80 年代开始加剧，并在解体期间导致了一系列内战、屠杀和较小的混乱）。
编辑：我并不支持苏联，只是想和大家分享一个我一直感到困惑的事实。
I'm not so sure.
Can't speak for the Soviet unx, but the same phenomenon is present in the people of past Yugoslavia (aged approx 50+ now).
Yugoslavia had socialism. People that lived in Yugoslavia and now in almost any capitalist country after its downfall will tell you that people were much more social, friendly and happy in Yugoslavia. The usual provided argument as to why, is that you generally get along and hang out with people of your class.
In socialism, everyone was very similar to each other in their social standing. The pay difference between a major director and the garbage lady in the same company was sixfold at a maximum. In capitalism, which values individuality at its roots, you have stark differences between people, their upbringing and social class.
Everyone keeps to themselves more now. And this includes scopes of all-native people, with no clear sign of immigrants or otherwise. The only thing that came rushing in was a cultural change. From socialism to capitalism. Due to capitalism's strong marketing.
Some regret the change. Some don't. I'm indifferent.
我不好说。
我不能说苏联的情况，但过去南斯拉夫的人民（现在大约 50 岁以上）也有同样的现象。
南斯拉夫实行的是社会主义。在南斯拉夫生活过的人，以及现在在南斯拉夫解体后在几乎所有资本主义国家生活过的人都会告诉你，南斯拉夫的人们更加会社交、友好和快乐。至于原因，通常的说法是，你一般会与同阶层的人相处和交往。
在社会主义国家，每个人的社会地位都非常相似。同一家公司的主要负责人和清洁工的工资最多相差六倍。在从根本上重视个性的资本主义中，人与人之间、他们的成长经历和社会阶层之间存在着明显的差异。
现在，每个人都更加独来独往。这也包括所有本地人的范围，没有明显的移民或其他迹象。唯一汹涌而来的是文化变革。从社会主义到资本主义。由于资本主义的强势营销。
有些人对这种变化感到后悔。有些人不后悔。我无动于衷。
my father in law went to Tajikistan a few months ago and spent alot of time with the locals cause he really likes the old history and the religious history of the area, and he said that they were more "meh" about the Soviet unx. more "they were annoying" than anything cause there is really nothing of value in Tajikistan for a monster political power to take but merely existed within their borders and laws. but they view the USA very positively. mostly cause the USA hasnt screwed them over like the soviet unx did with Comm......
我的岳父几个月前去了塔吉克斯坦，花了很多时间和当地人打交道，因为他非常喜欢那里的古老历史和宗教历史，他说他们对苏联更多的是“无所谓”，更多的是“他们很烦人”，因为塔吉克斯坦确实没有什么有价值的东西可以让一个怪物般的政治力量夺走，而只是存在于他们的边界和法律之内，但他们对美国的看法非常积极，主要是因为美国没有像苏联的共产主义那样坑害他们。
I had the opposite experience when I was in Tajikistan a couple of years ago. People seemed to idealize it, in a way where they acknowledged it wasn’t perfect but it was better than what they had nowadays. It makes sense. Tajikistan is currently one of the poorest countries in the world. I had someone who was particularly fond of the Soviet era show me his uncles apartment, which was provided to him by the government based on his family’s size.
几年前我在塔吉克斯坦的经历却与此相反。人们似乎把它理想化了，他们承认它并不完美，但总比现在的生活要好。这是有道理的。塔吉克斯坦是目前世界上最贫穷的国家之一。有一个特别喜欢苏联时代的人带我参观了他叔叔的公寓，那是苏联政府根据他家的人口数量提供给他的。
Likewise when I was there, and I speak Tajik. Also lots of anti-American sentiment
我在那里的时候也是如此，我说塔吉克语。那里也有很多反美情绪