CK3玩家讨论：你希望中国加入游戏吗？中国在游戏里又应该如何呈现？
How do you want to see China Implemented?
译文简介
你希望他们做一个类似于“玉龙”的 DLC 吗？
正文翻译
How do you want to see China Implemented?
你希望中国在游戏里如何呈现？
Would you rather they do it similar to the Jade Dragon DLC? Or maybe have a on map Chinese empire? Or something else entirely.
I’ll be honest the Jade Dragon system was hot garbage, all the Chinese Empire added was essentially just a way to get free stuff(which is really just the problem with most of the CK2 systems, like the pope. If you know how to manipulate them well they just give you free stuff with you having to put in very little.)
你希望他们做一个类似于“玉龙”的 DLC 吗？或者在地图上建立一个中华帝国？或者是其他完全不同的东西。
老实说，“玉龙”这个系统完全是垃圾，“中华帝国”所添加的一切本质上只是多了一种获得免费东西的方式（这正是大多数 CK2 系统的问题所在，比如教皇。如果你知道如何很好地操纵它们，它们就会给你免费的东西，而你只需付出很少的代价）。
I’ll be honest the Jade Dragon system was hot garbage, all the Chinese Empire added was essentially just a way to get free stuff(which is really just the problem with most of the CK2 systems, like the pope. If you know how to manipulate them well they just give you free stuff with you having to put in very little.)
你希望他们做一个类似于“玉龙”的 DLC 吗？或者在地图上建立一个中华帝国？或者是其他完全不同的东西。
老实说，“玉龙”这个系统完全是垃圾，“中华帝国”所添加的一切本质上只是多了一种获得免费东西的方式（这正是大多数 CK2 系统的问题所在，比如教皇。如果你知道如何很好地操纵它们，它们就会给你免费的东西，而你只需付出很少的代价）。
评论翻译
很赞 ( 21 )
收藏
China and The Byzantines were both not feudal and used an imperial system of sorts, the Byzantine’s will have to be implemented first.
中国和拜占庭都不是封建制国家，都使用某种帝国制，要搞中国就必须先搞好拜占庭的帝制。
An "imperial' DLC for China and Byzantines would work well - eunuch bureaucrats, centralised power, focus on prestige and court politics. I think they could knock both out in one DLC if they're clever about it.
为中国和拜占庭制作一个“帝国”DLC 会很棒——内容包括太监官僚、中央集权、注重声望和宫廷政治。我认为，如果制作组够聪明的话，可以用一个 DLC 完成这两项工作。
It's likely. They could make the paid part China and then adapt those systems to make the Byzantine upxe as a patch.
很有可能。他们可以将中国部分做成付费版，然后调整一下这些系统，将拜占庭做成免费更新补丁。
That's how I see it as well
我也是这么觉得
Best I can do is Iberian Struggle copy pasted and flavour pack
我估计制作组能做到最好的就是复制粘贴伊比利亚斗争加一个风味包
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
The current government systems suck across the board anyway, nothing unique to the two major empires.
无论如何，目前游戏里的政府系统都很糟糕，并非两大帝国独有的问题。
Roman Empire
As someone still learning the game. How would that implemented? What's the key differences?
P.s. are we getting China? Did I miss something? OP seems to imply.
作为一个还在学习这个游戏的人。帝国制要如何实施？主要区别是什么？
PS：我们会得到中国吗？我遗漏了什么吗？OP 似乎在暗示会有中国
Secretly Zoroastrian
No, OP just seems to think paradox will put the east in the game
People have been certain thay paradox is going to expand the map further east since ck2
不，OP似乎只是自顾自地认为P社会将东方纳入游戏
自ck2以来，人们一直确信P社会将把地图进一步向东扩展
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Shrewd
Paradox has already confirmed that they plan on expanding the map to include the rest of the old world in the future. Why does it seem like everyone has forgotten about that roadmap already?
P社已经确认他们计划在未来扩展地图，将旧世界的其他部分也包括在内。为什么好像所有人都已经忘记了这个路线图呢？
Byzantium and china were not feudal. I don’t know a lot about china but one of the primary things about Byzantium is that the borders of themata could not change and they were not hereditary (well, they usually were hereditary in practice and their borders changed but only due to imperial decrees). Also, the emperorship was not, officially, hereditary. A rudimentary form of the Roman senate existed and it had to elect a new emperor after the last one’s death (and had actual power before the decision was made). The most usually chooses candidate was the one appointed by the previous emperor before his death, which was also usually his firstborn son during his reign (if they were born before his reign then they weren’t as preferred). All this complicated stuff led to claimants rising up out of literally nowhere and all the “Byzantine politics” you hear about. Back to the themata, in the game when an outside power declares war on a vassal it is instead at war with the entire empire, which just so happens to be exactly what the Byzantines wanted to avoid with them! The themata were to defend themselves and, if shit hit the fan, the imperial army would come in!!!
拜占庭和中国都不是封建国家。我对中国了解不多，但拜占庭的一个主要特点是，军区的边界不能改变，也不是世袭的（好吧，实际上他们通常是世袭的，它们的边界也会改变，但只是因为帝国的法令）。此外，皇帝职位也不是正式的世袭制。罗马元老院的雏形依然存在，它必须在上一位皇帝去世后选举新皇帝（在推举新皇帝前拥有实际权力）。最常选择的候选人是上一任皇帝生前任命的人，通常也是他在位时的长子（如果他们是在他在位前出生的，就不那么受欢迎了）。所有这些复杂的事情都导致了突然冒出的候选人，以及你所听到的那些“拜占庭政治”。说回军区，在游戏中，当外部势力向一个附庸（军区）宣战时，它就会与整个帝国开战，而这恰好是拜占庭人想要避免的！这些军区需要自卫，只有情况大大地不妙，帝国军队才会介入！！！
there was no electing an emperor by a senate in the byzantines. and while a strong dynasty ruled like the Syrian dynasty or the Macedonians it was hereditary of sorts. As you can see if you look through the series of emperors from these dynasties
在拜占庭，皇帝不是由元老院选举产生的。像叙利亚王朝或马其顿王朝这样的强大王朝进行统治时，它就是世袭的。如果你翻阅这些朝代的皇帝谱系，就会发现这一点。
The Roman senate could and did elect and support new Emperors, and at one point tried to sell it off to a foreign national (one of the bulgarians if I remember correctly.) Simply look at the twenty years anarchy period of the Roman Empire.
罗马元老院可以而且确实选举和支持了新皇帝，还曾一度试图将帝位卖给外国国民（如果我没记错的话，其中之一是保加利亚人）。
I would really like to get a source on that as I personally haven't heard of that. from my understanding the eastern Roman senate was never as powerful and important as the one in Rome used to be. And from my knowledge of the title of emperor being sold was after pertinaxes death in the 190s, and that wasn't even the senate but the praetorian guard. but I would never use the word elect for what they did. And I would like to know with simply look at the 20 year anarchy. but I would love to learn something new if you can provide me with the sources.
我真的很想得到这方面的消息来源，因为我个人还没有听过这种说法。据我了解，东罗马元老院从来没有像罗马元老院那样强大和重要。据我所知，皇帝头衔被出售是在 190 年代佩尔蒂纳克斯死后，这么干的甚至不是元老院，而是禁卫军。而且我永远不会用“选举”这个词来形容他们所做的事情。只需简单地看看拜占庭 20 年的无政府状态就可以知道这一点。但如果你能提供资料来源，我很乐意学习一些新知识。
Their government was much more centralized around Constantinople. The bureaucrats in the city administrated the empire from there and any powerful noble who wanted to advance their career was basically required to be there.
Additionally, their armies were centered into different “themes”. These themes, most of which were in Anatolia, were a mix of professional soldiers as well as levies who were called upon in the event of an Arab invasion. Once again, control of these was centralized in Constantinople. The city would appoint a strategos (στρατηγός) to lead each Theme.
All land in the empire was considered to be directly owned by the emperor. Rather than gaining power from the land your family controlled in the feudal system, you were forced to move up through the Byzantine bureaucracy. During the time of Crusader Kings, this bureaucracy was easily the most advanced in Europe and more advanced than most other nations in the world. Although it is different from the Romans, you can see the lasting influence that their centralized government had on the empire.
In short, the Byzantines never used the feudal system so representing them like you would Western Europe is completely inaccurate.
“什么是帝国制？”
君士坦丁堡的政府更为集权。君士坦丁堡的官僚们在那里管理帝国，任何有权势的贵族要想在仕途上有所发展，基本上都必须去君士坦丁堡。
此外，他们的军队以不同的“军区”为中心。这些“军区”大多位于安纳托利亚，既有职业军人，也有在阿拉伯人入侵时被征召的征兵。同样，君士坦丁堡也对这些部队进行集中控制。城市会任命一名将军领导每个军区。
帝国的所有土地都直接归皇帝所有。与从家族控制的土地上获得权力的封建制不同，在帝国制里你需要通过拜占庭的官僚机构进行晋升。在游戏设定的这段时期，拜占庭官僚机构是欧洲最先进的，比世界上大多数其他国家都要先进。虽然与罗马人不同，但你可以看到他们的中央集权政府对帝国的持久影响。
总之，拜占庭人从未使用过封建制度，所以像游戏里表现西欧那样表现他们是完全不准确的。
Government type for Byzantine Empire was pretty different from the bureaucratic system in China. China really needs its own system.
拜占庭帝国的政府类型与中国的官僚体系有很大不同。中国确实需要一套自己的制度。
Literally everything else needs to be put in place before it. That said, China’s governance model needs to be properly implemented, perhaps through an “imperial” govt type for both them and the ERE
在此之前，先要把其他一切都落实到位。不仅如此，中国的治理模式需要得到合适的方式来呈现，或许可以通过一种“帝国”政府类型来呈现，这既适用于中国，也适用于东罗马。
I'd argue that the first thing that needs to be brought back for this kind of government is Viceroys
我认为，这种政府首先需要恢复的是总督制度
I don't. Several existing structures in realms already on the map are poorly implemented for historicity. China's system of government at this time in history is so far removed from the game's systems that it would need to be butchered to jam into the game.
我不认为中国会加入游戏。地图上已有的几个国家的现有结构在历史还原方面已经做得很差了。中国历史上的政府系统与游戏中的系统相去甚远，因此需要对其进行巨大的改动才能将其塞入游戏中。
Rather paradox make a game set in China.
还不如让P社单独制作一款以中国为背景的游戏。
Yeah, a game centered around China and maybe just East Asia in general would be really interesting. Though the question would be around what era it would be. The obvious one would be the around the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, but I don't know if that would also be the most fun and interesting.
是的，一款以中国为中心，甚至整个东亚地区为中心的游戏会非常有趣。不过问题在于把游戏的时代背景设置在什么时候。显而易见的选择是三国时代，但我不知道这是否也是最有趣、最好玩的时代。
maybe in Five Barbarians and Sixteen States period or Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms.. more faction to play
也可以放在五胡十六国时期或者五代十国时期...有更多的派系可以玩
Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms and struggle mechanics would be such a fun game lol. Big Game of Thrones vibe, and you can even throw absurd, slightly mythical shit in to give it a low fantasy vibe
将五代十国和斗争机制结合起来会是一个非常有趣的游戏，哈哈。 有种《权力的游戏》的氛围，你甚至可以加入一些荒谬的、有点神话般的东西，给它一种低魔的奇幻的氛围
A game set during Three kingdoms period would be perfect. It is the sengoku jidai of China and there's an insane amount of source materials to work with in that period. But for that to be fun they need to incorporate CK3 character systems and a much deeper war/combat system.
以三国时期为背景的游戏是最完美的。它是中国的战国时代，有那个时期大量的原始资料可以利用。但是，要想让游戏好玩，他们就需要加入 CK3 角色扮演系统和更深层次的战争/战斗系统。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Watch as all the players simp for Sun Ren.
然后所有的玩家都选孙尚香。
I can’t wait to see how cursed the players will do with the characters
Like imagine playing as Liu Bei but turning him into a murderous tyrant
我迫不及待地想知道玩家们会如何使用这些角色。
比如想象一下扮演刘备，但把他变成一个杀人不眨眼的暴君
Persia
More like Jade Dragon. I want them to be an off-map source of trade and event flavour for the East, not another on-map Empire, crammed into poorly suited mechanics based off West-European feudalism.
Not a clone of Jade Dragon's mechanics - that system had lots of flaws. But it's the right general idea, IMO.
更像是玉龙。我希望他们成为东方地图外的贸易和活动来源，而不是地图上的另一个被塞进基于西欧封建主义的不合适的机制中的帝国。
但不要是玉龙机制的克隆--那个系统有很多缺陷。但总体思路是正确的。
This game just can't support an expansion to the fucking Sea of Japan. It's already pretty thin in several areas, and there was zero interaction bw China and the other areas on the map that can be modeled with current mechanics. Rajas in India weren't pledging feudal service to the Chinese Emperor; nobody outside of literally genghis khan was meaningfully conquering across the current mapline.
Maaaaybe the silk road societies could be modeled and include their ties to China but that'd have to be mostly trade and cultural, areas that CK3 just doesn't really model.
If we want a China game they should just make one; I'm sure people'd buy it. People bought Three Kingdoms.
这款游戏根本不应该拓展到日本海。现在游戏里有几个地区做得已经很薄弱了，而且中国和地图上其他地区之间的互动是零，无法用当前的机制来模拟。印度的拉贾斯坦并没有向中国皇帝提供封建服务；除了成吉思汗之外，没有人在当前的地图线上进行有意义的征服。
也许可以模拟丝绸之路上的社会，并将其与中国的联系纳入其中，但这主要是贸易和文化方面的问题，而 CK3 并没有真正去模拟这些领域。
如果我们想要一个有中国的游戏，他们就应该做一个；我相信人们会买单的。就像全面战争三国一样。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
One word.
Last.
一句话：最后才会做
first they should make a new government type that can better model systems outside western feudalism, then china can be added as a map empire but with extra functionality, like how the pope has special stuff.
首先，他们应该创建一种新的政府类型，以更好地模拟西方封建制度以外的体系，然后可以将中国作为一个地图帝国添加进来，但增加额外的功能，就像教皇拥有特殊的东西一样。
Buff the Mongols by a lot: give them increased mobility, stability, and the potential to summon vastly more special troops if they are getting beaten. Make them a significant calamity that at their max will easily wipe even the strongest player empires off the map. Then create a "Chinese Front" mechanic that allows you to cooperate with China in fighting the Mongols - send them skilled commanders, and resources, share discoveries, etc., to help them hold back the Mongols.
The Chinese Front by default will have 80-90% of Mongol forces (9x the number they have now in-game) fighting there. The more the Front deteriorates (or rather, the more Chinese territory the Mongols control), the more gold the Mongols will gain as a passive income, and the more reserves they can pull from there. On the other hand, if China starts to beat them back, they will show up on the Eastern side of the map and begin to send troops to help you against the Mongol remnants.
Depending on how much you helped China, they will thank you with massive amounts of gold and prestige. Of course, that is if they survived. The expectation is for the Mongols to win, and helping them is just to delay the inevitable before the second wave arrives.
对蒙古人进行大幅增强：提高他们的机动性、稳定性，比如如果他们被击败，还可以召唤更多的特殊部队。让他们成为一场巨大的灾难，即使是最强大的玩家操纵的帝国也会被他们轻易地从地图上抹去。然后创建一个“中国阵线”机制，允许你与中国合作对抗蒙古人--向他们派遣熟练的指挥官和资源，分享发现等，帮助他们抵挡蒙古人的进攻。
默认情况下，中国阵线将有 80%-90% 的蒙古军队（是现在游戏中蒙古军队数量的 9 倍）在那里作战。中国战线越是恶化（或者说，蒙古人控制的中国领土越多），蒙古人作为被动收入获得的黄金就越多，他们可以从中国获得的人力储备也就越多。另一方面，如果中国开始击退他们，中国就会出现在地图的东边，并开始派兵帮助你对抗蒙古残余势力。
根据你对中国的帮助程度，他们会用大量的黄金和声望来感谢你。当然，前提是他们能活下来。我们的预设是蒙古人获胜，帮助中国只是为了在第二波攻势到来之前拖延时间。
I would like for Paradox to give me a job and implement our Oriental Empires mod into the base game.
我希望P社给我一份工作，并将我们的东方帝国模组应用到基础游戏中。
I would rather not have it, as there are core gameplay and european features that are still lacking. If i HAD to choose something, jade dragon is the right direction. I liked having a final boss in invading china in ck2 after painting the entire map. And the china interactions were very useful when playing that side of the map
我宁愿不添加中国，因为它仍然缺乏核心游戏玩法并且欧洲部分都还没做好。如果一定要选的话，玉龙是正确的方向。我喜欢在CK2中给整个地图涂色后，有一个入侵中国的选项，让中国来作为最终 BOSS。跟中国的互动在玩那边的地图时非常有用
Definitely on map. But I think it's a bad idea to implement China without nomads and trade first.
China would also have to come with it's own sort of bureaucratic government type, which would be super interesting, but adding China (and doing it well) would be a major expansion for sure, much larger than anything they've done so far.
肯定有这个计划。但我认为，在还没有做好游牧民族和贸易的情况下就去做中国是个坏主意。
中国还必须有自己的官僚政府类型，这会非常有趣，但加入中国（并做好它）肯定会是一个重大的扩展，比他们迄今为止所做的任何事情都要大得多。
I'd rather not see it implemented tbh, closest I'd like would be silk road trade.
我宁愿不添加，我最希望的是丝绸之路贸易。
I'd rather it wasn't implemented, and the development time was spent on the regions in the game. Where's the college of cardinals? When are Novgorod and Venice going to be playable?
我宁愿不实施，而是把开发时间花在游戏中目前存在的地区上。红衣主教学院在哪里？诺夫哥罗德和威尼斯什么时候能玩？
Honestly I think it needs to be its own game, same with Japan
老实说，我认为它需要有一个以自己为背景的游戏，日本也一样
I want silk road and some sort of trade mechanic before china, ck2 style or an actual on map style. Also, I want playable republic, theocracy, nomad government, and roman government before any of the above.
我希望在做中国之前先有丝绸之路和某种贸易机制，无论是 CK2 风格还是实际的地图风格。此外，我还希望在上述任何一种机制之前能有可玩的共和制、神权制、游牧政体和罗马政体。
Nothing against adding China but I’m worried about performance issues. If they can figure out the performance issue then sure, I don’t mind it.
Until then I’m against it.
不反对添加中国，但我担心性能问题。如果他们能解决性能问题，我当然不介意。
在此之前，我反对。
I mean you can play with China right now with one of the Asia expansion mods and they don’t murder the game for a good while
我的意思是，你现在就可以用其中一个亚洲扩展模组玩到中国，而且他们在很长一段时间内都不会让游戏运行不下去
I haven’t played it. Usually after a couple of centuries the game gets slower as you get thousands of characters in the world. This was a big problem for me in CK2 which was why the plague was so important. If pdx can figure out how to make the game run well with the additional characters I’d be interested in china. I liked jade dragon and I think a strong Chinese empire would be interesting.
我没玩过。通常几个世纪后，随着世界上生成了数千个角色，游戏会变得更慢。这是我在 CK2 中遇到的一个大问题，这也是瘟疫如此重要的原因。如果P社能想出办法让游戏在有更多角色的情况下运行良好，我会对中国很感兴趣。我喜欢玉龙，我认为一个强大的中华帝国会很有趣。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
East Asia should be its own game, with enough love to make it worth it
CK borders should stay as is, even now I’d say it’s too big and that India/Africa weren’t entirely necessary to start with
东亚应该有以自己为主角的游戏，有足够的爱和精力的投入才会好玩。
CK的边界应该保持原样，即使是现在我也会说它太大了，印度/非洲地图并不是很有必要
I only want to see them on the game map if they can actually model China's system of government at the time to some degree of accuracy. I don't want a rip-off of Western European feudalism, like the ERE has. When they rework the Byzantines will be telling - if they do a good job there, then maybe an on-map China actually would work.
There's no point in having them basically as this giant flavourless portion of the map that only serves as map-painting fodder, especially when I'm usually bored by the time I'd get anywhere near there anyway.
Otherwise, I would prefer them to be like a Jade Dragon sort of thing.
我只有在游戏能够在一定程度上准确模拟中国当时的政体的情况下才想在地图上看到它。我不希望看到又是一个沿用西欧封建制度的地区，就像东罗马那样。对拜占庭的重制将指明方向--如果他们在这方面做得好，那么添加中国也许就真的可行了。
让他们成为地图上的一个巨大的玩起来完全没意思的部分，只充当球长涂色的素材是没有意义的，尤其是当我玩到接近这个地方时一般就会觉得无聊了。
否则，我更希望能像玉龙一样呈现。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处