如果Su-27配备了西方航电/导弹,它是否会比F-15更好
If the Su-27 had Western avionics/missiles, would it be better than the F-15?译文简介
如果Su-27配备了西方航电/导弹,它是否会比F-15更好
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Tomaž Vargazon
No. The key problem of Su-27 and Russian aircraft in general is not avionics and missiles. It’s durability and longevity.
不。苏-27和俄罗斯飞机总体上的关键问题不是航电系统和导弹。而是耐用性和寿命。
俄罗斯飞机的设计理念与西方的飞机不同。西方飞机的目标是成为最好的战斗机,由最优秀的机组人员驾驶。为此,它们具有很高的耐用性,最好的指标就是机体寿命和发动机寿命。西方飞机的设计寿命是20年,在这个生命周期内飞行8000小时。这主要是用于训练。寿命还可以进一步延长,但通常认为这样做是不划算的。
Even if Russian aircraft recieved Western avionics their key problem would remain unaddressed and the improvement irrelevant.
俄罗斯飞机价格低廉且易于使用,由知道如何执行这些任务的人员驾驶,但将决策权留给总部。俄罗斯飞行员不是天空骑士,而是可以接收语音命令的生物飞行杆执行器。俄罗斯飞机的制造周期为 30 年,在此周期内飞行了 4000 小时。其中训练相对较少,西方飞行员接受的训练时间大约是俄罗斯飞行员的四倍,这将对空战产生影响。
即使俄罗斯飞机配备了西方的航电系统,它们的关键问题仍然得不到解决,改进也无关紧要的。
It’s strange that your MiG-29 has helicopter rotor.
奇怪的是你的米格-29有直升机旋翼。
It collided with a helicopter :-)
它与直升机相撞:-)
I doubt F-15 will perform any better in case of collision with helicopter )))
我怀疑 F-15 在与直升机相撞时会表现得更好)))
原创翻译:龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
That would go to the pilot training referenced earlier. Western pilots are trained to avoid flying into other aircraft. ;-)
这将涉及前面提到的飞行员培训。西方飞行员接受过避免撞上其他飞机的训练。;-)
Great observation! You have exposed this liar and dishonest full time paid Czech Nazi propagandist!
很棒的观察力!你揭露了这个骗子、不诚实的、全职捷克NC宣传员!
Who is a Czech Nazi?
谁是捷克纳粹分子?
Tomaz Vargason
托马斯·瓦尔加森(就是楼主)
So you know where it comes from:
所以你知道他来自哪里:
I just checked Senor Fernandez’s profile … he doesn’t have one, after six and a half years on Quora.
I suspect he is a nonperson.
我刚刚查了费尔南德斯先生的个人资料……在 Quora 上呆了六年半之久,一点个人资料都没有。
我怀疑他是一个不存在的人。
(这几个在人肉楼主。。。)
Ehy Czech and what is your obsession with nazis?
嘿,捷克人,你对NC的痴迷是什么?
You forgot to add that Russian aircraft are designed to be serviced and maintained by uneducated farm boys.
您忘了补充一点,俄罗斯飞机的设计目的是由未受过教育的农村青年进行维修和维护。
They will wear down quickly, as we have seen with helicopters in Ukraine.
它们会很快磨损,正如我们在乌克兰的直升机上看到的那样。
The “ legendary T-34,to some,was built for an expected VERY short service life.
Typically Russian.
对于某些人来说,传奇的 T-34 的预期使用寿命非常短。
典型的俄罗斯风格
If it were f16s, Ukraine wouldn't have even a winglet left due to maintenance
如果是f16,乌克兰可能因为保养问题连个小翼都剩不下
F-16’s don't have Winglets
F-16 没有翼梢小翼
initially during the cold war they were. Now they are putting more sophisticated equipment on them and it's no longer possible but the initial design philosophy still affects their cold war airfrxs.
在冷战初期,它们确实如此。现在他们正在给它们安装更复杂的设备,这已经不再可能,但初始的设计理念仍然影响着它们冷战时期的机体。
Russian fighters AND pilots are like the Tie fighters from Star Wars. Cheap, expendable, low value
俄罗斯的战斗机和飞行员就像《星球大战》中的钛战斗机一样。便宜、消耗品、价值低。
But do they have cool sound effects?
但它们不是有很酷的音效吗?
Do we have an universal definition of “cool”? In my opinion, the sound of these could wake the dead, therefore it is cool.
我们对“酷”有一个通用的定义吗?在我看来,这些声音可以唤醒死人,所以很酷。
That was cool!!!
泰裤辣
The life of a soldier is always cheap and expendable
军人的生命永远是廉价的、消耗品
And Russian Air Farce units are doctrinally operated as an extension of their artillery corps, with limited thinking
俄罗斯空军部队在理论上是作为其炮兵部队的延伸而进行教条主义使用,思维所限
if you have nothing to do, better not do it here
如果你没事干,最好也不要在这里瞎叫唤。
Isn’t it the core value of air force? An extended, precise arty system?
这不是空军的核心价值吗?一个扩展的、精确的炮兵系统?
My country bought the MiG 29 & F18 at comparatively the same time, that was 20 years ago, only the F18 are still flying. the Migs needed expensive engine & avionics replacements. It is cheaper to buy the Korean warplanes instead.
我的国家大约20年前同时购买了米格-29和F-18,只有F-18仍在飞行。米格需要昂贵的发动机和航电设备更换。购买韩国的战机更便宜。
Russian engine life is 1/5th of western engine easily
俄罗斯发动机寿命只有西方发动机的1/5
That explains why Ukraine does not have air superiority. They use Soviet/Russian aircraft.
这就解释了为什么乌克兰没有空中优势。他们使用苏联/俄罗斯战机。
More importantly, they are heavily outnumbered, and do not have any airfields far enough away from the enemy to be (relatively) safe from attack.
更重要的是,他们的数量严重不足,并且没有距离敌人足够远的机场来(相对)安全地免受攻击。
You didn’t mention that graft and corruption will redirect parts and supplies to somewhere else, leaving many Russian planes unable to fly, unable to be armed, and without fuel. So even if they had western avionics and weapons systems - they wouldn’t have western avionics and weapons systems… They’d have bigger boats, houses, pools, and more hookers.
您没有提到贪污腐败份子会将零部件和供应品卖到其他地方,导致许多俄罗斯飞机无法飞行,无法武装,也无法获得燃料。因此,即使它们配备了西方航电和武器系统 - 它们也将无法使用西方的航电和武器系统...腐败分子就这样拥有了更大的游艇、房子、游泳池和更多的女人。
You are right about Soviet/Russian design ethos towards rugged air frxs. This trait appeals to export buyers who may use these planes for 40 years. Russian avionics and radars are very adequate for the cost of these planes to produce. The Soviets have always embraced numbers and affordability over the absolute best technology. Bad avionics is not why the Russian military is struggling. No pilot will tell you a non-stealth fighter can compare to a stealth fighter. Stealth is the greatest leap in aeronautics since the turbine replaced the reciprocating engine.and other nations are catching up, albeit by Chinese theft
您对苏联/俄罗斯对坚固机体的设计理念的看法是正确的。这种特点吸引了那些可能使用这些飞机40年的出口买家。俄罗斯的航电设备和雷达在生产成本上非常合适。苏联人一直强调数量和经济性,而不是绝对最好的技术。糟糕的航电设备并不是俄罗斯军队面临困境的原因。没有飞行员会告诉您非隐形战机可以与隐形战机相媲美。隐形是自涡轮发动机取代往复发动机以来航空技术的最大飞跃,其他国家也在迎头赶上,尽管是通过中国式Q取。
Even if you switch the aircraft, western pilots would still be so much better, because they are so superiorly trained
即使换成西方战机,西方飞行员仍然会更好,因为他们更加训练有素。
American equipment is built to very precise “mil-spec” standards. Russian equipment is built with the idea that equipment will very possibly lost in battle, so there is no point in building them to too high of a standard.
美国设备是按照非常精确的“军用规格”标准制造的。俄罗斯装备的制造理念是装备很可能会在战斗中丢失,因此没有必要按照太高的标准制造。
You might be correct about everything else, but deliberately mis-identifying this image does not help your credibility
你可能对其他所有事情都是正确的,但故意错误地识别这张图片并不能提高你的可信度
(下面是网友给出的图片真实链接)
“在查谟和克什米尔布德加姆地区坠毁的 米-17 直升机残骸。照片来源:PTI photo“ 印度空军确认巴德加姆直升机坠毁是由“友军误伤”引起的
“2019 年 2 月 27 日,印度空军直升机在克什米尔巴德加姆地区坠毁,人们站在其残骸旁。” 印度和巴基斯坦战斗机采取军事行动,紧张局势升级
Yeah but you need to calculate how much maintenance is needed per hour of flight time.
And cost of parts (running costs, not for actual battle damage or accidents).
Get these 2 things per fighter jet, and compare.
I agree that the MiG 29 is definitely an expensive jet to maintain, the Su 27 not so sure.
But either way, this bit of data will paint a clear picture.
Profile photo for Ozan Simitçiler
是的,但您需要计算每小时飞行时间需要多少维护费用。
以及零部件的成本(运行成本,而不是实际的战斗损伤或事故)。
获取每架战斗机的这两项数据,然后进行比较。
我同意米格-29维护成本确实很高,苏-27就不太确定。
但无论如何,这些数据将能让你清晰的了解。
Russian engines have a shorter life so they need to be overhauled more often, that adds up to the cost. Plus you need to change the engines a few times throughout the lifespan of the airfrx. That's why Russian aircraft are much cheaper. But in the long run they aren't really because of the new engine costs. Still initial costs are lower and that's the selling point. if you are gonna fight the ww3 and don't expect planes to survive for long, that design philosophy makes sense. When they were first designed components were chosen for even non specialized conscxt mechanics could handle them. However tech develops and that's no longer possible, thus cheaper maintanence may no longer be the case.
俄罗斯发动机的寿命较短,因此它们需要更频繁地进行翻修,这增加了成本。此外,在飞机机身的寿命周期内,你可能需要数次更换发动机。这就是为什么俄罗斯飞机要便宜得多的原因。但从长远来看,实际上并不便宜,因为有了换新发动机的成本。尽管启动成本较低,当然这是卖点。如果你要打第三次世界大战,并且不指望飞机能够存活很长时间,那么这种设计理念是有道理的。当这些飞机首次设计时,所选择的组件甚至是非专业的应征机械师也可以维保。然而,技术的发展使这不再可能,因此更便宜的维护费用可能不再成立。
At an airshow i was close to a SU27. its build quality was on level with bad hobby project. It will hot handle high G for many times.
在一次航展上我近距离观察了一架Su-27。它的制造质量简直跟一些业余项目一样烂。甚至它不能多次承受高G力。
If it has western avionics and missiles, it will look different, perform differently, and it will be called by a different name - not SU-27.
如果它有西方的航空电子设备和导弹,它的外观会有所不同,性能也会有所不同,并且会有不同的名称 - 而不是 SU-27
Russian aircraft are anything but cheap ask indian airforce,they are cheap to buy, expensive to maintain\\\\operate,not to mention deep level maintenance(downtime) they require, western aircraft are expensive to buy but cost effective.
俄罗斯飞机在购买时确实相对较便宜,但在维护/运营方面却很昂贵,更不用说它们需要的深层次维护(停飞时间)。而西方飞机在购买时成本较高,但在运营方面更为经济。这一点在印度空军的情况中确实有所体现。
I have heard that Su-27 has the fuselage shaped like an airfoil. Such a lifting body design maximized the lift at the cost of structural robustness.
我听说Su-27的机身形状类似翼型。这种提升体设计在最大化升力的同时牺牲了结构的强度。
Durability and longevity? The Romanian air force still uses mig21s built in the 60s…The mig29s used by Ukraine are mostly from the early 80s…
耐用性和寿命?罗马尼亚空军仍在使用上世纪60年代生产的米格-21飞机...乌克兰使用的米格-29大多来自上世纪80年代初...
Nope, the Romanian AF MiG 21s where built in the late70s to mid 80s but heavily upgraded with to western standards in the late 90s/early 2000s and even more westernised in the years to come, these since them MiG21 LanceR called Aircraft showed thier age in the last years, were no longer reliable a nd had a lot of accidents. The last LanceR was phased out from 2016 and last flew early 2023. Ironically there where replaced by F-16s built in the 80s for Portugal and Norway
不是的,罗马尼亚空军的MiG-21飞机产于上世纪70年代末至80年代中期,但在上世纪90年代末/21世纪初按照西方标准进行了大规模升级,并在以后的几年里进一步加装了更多的西方电子设备。这些被称为米格-21 枪骑兵的飞机在最后几年显示出它们的老化,变得不再可靠,发生了许多事故。最后一架枪骑兵于2016年开始逐步淘汰,最后一次飞行是在2023年初。具有讽刺意味的是,它们被上世纪80年代为葡萄牙和挪威制造的F-16飞机所取代。
Educate yourself! Russian planes are the most durable of the world!
催眠自己!俄罗斯飞机是世界上最皮实耐用的!
obxtively, they really aren’t. The F-15 and F-16 have been in service just as long as the Su-27 and Mig-29, yet the majority of them are in much better condition, and are much more accepting of upgrades. Western engines also last about 3x as long as Russian ones, accelerate more quickly, and help Western aircraft maintain energy in turns better than their Russian counterparts. The only durability edge Russian aircraft have is being able to use rougher runways, and even this advantage is overstated.
客观地说,事实并非如此。F-15和F-16与苏-27和米格-29一样已经服役了很长时间,但其中大多数的状况要好得多,而且更容易接受升级。西方发动机寿命也约为俄罗斯发动机的3倍,加速更快,并且帮助西方战机在转弯时更好地保持动力输出,优于他们的对手俄罗斯。俄罗斯飞机唯一的耐用性优势是能够使用更崎岖的跑道,即便如此,这个优势也被夸大了。
Tbh indian Mig 21 are older. But they are the most mordern mig 21
老实说,印度的米格 21 更老。但它们是最现代化的米格21
Just because North Korea still flies Mig-17’s and Il-28’s doesn't mean they more durable.
仅因为朝鲜仍在使用米格-17和伊尔-28并不意味着它们更耐用
Be aware that this is the same guy that wrote recently that an F16 from the 70s is equivalent to a SU35 and a SU57 from 2020… Be careful who you read. These lies and misinformation are to be expected from a full time paid Czech Nazi propagandist.
请注意,这是同一个人最近写的,70 年代的 F16 相当于 2020 年的 苏35 和 苏57……请小心你看到的人。这些谎言和错误信息明显是来自一名全职捷克NC宣传员。
原创翻译:龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
You do seem a little fixated in calling him a nazi. Can you explain why you think he is one?
你似乎确实有点执着于称他为NC。你能解释一下为什么你认为他是其中一员的原因吗?
He strongly and firmly supports mass murder of citizens whose nationalities he dislikes, like the Russians or the Palestinians
他坚决支持大规模谋杀他不喜欢的国籍的公民,例如俄罗斯人或巴勒斯坦人
Your response isn’t even rational.
你的回答甚至都不合乎常理。
Big claim with absolutely no evidence.
毫无证据的大言不惭。
F-16 is better than Su-57… it exists as more than a prototype. Can't speak for the Su-35 but the F-16 has been upgraded over a dozen times since the 70s, and can carry the AiM-120, which can down an enemy plane from 100km without the enemy getting a launch warning.
F-16 比 Su-57 更好……它不仅仅是一个原型机。苏-35不敢乱说,但F-16自70年代以来已经升级了十几次,并且可以携带AiM-120空空导弹,它可以在敌机察觉之前在100公里外击落敌机。
Only in your sick and ignorant mind. The su57 and su35 can shot down planes over a distance of 400km. Good luck with that
只存在于你病态而无知的头脑中。苏57和苏35可以击落400公里距离外的飞机。
No they can’t . In their own video they couldn’t even get a track on a large target until 100km out. That was a single target. The 35’s sensors are on par with an F15 from the 80’s.
When it comes to missiles, AIM-120D and Meteor have over 60% greater envelope and significantly better ECCMs than R-77–1. That’s forgetting the fact that 77’s are in very short supply.
No Russian aircraft is peer to western aircraft in this regard. As cool looking and awesome at air shows the Russian fighters are in my opinion, they simply are not competitive.
This is why Putin doesn’t want F16’s in Ukraine. He’s got planes to sell and the last thing he needs the world to see are his planes being smoked by western 4th gen aircraft,
不,他们不能。在他们自己的视频中,他们甚至在100公里外都无法追踪到一个大型目标。那可是一个单一目标。Su-35的传感器与80年代的F15相当。
就导弹而言,AIM-120D和Meteor的射程增幅超过60%,电子对抗能力也明显优于R-77-1。还忘了一点,77型导弹的供应非常短缺。
在这方面,没有俄罗斯的飞机能与西方的飞机相媲美。在我看来,尽管俄罗斯战斗机在空展上看起来很酷,但它们根本无法与西方的竞争。
这就是为什么普京不希望F16出现在乌克兰的原因。他有飞机要卖,他最不想让世界看到的就是他的飞机在西方的四代机面前吃灰。
and you think western avionics are better then Russian ? rhetorics and riddle's when I lie is repeated for several times it becomes a decision.
你认为西方航空电子设备比俄罗斯更好?当我决定撒谎时,就会多用修辞和谜语
If they aren't, then explain to me why neither the Superjet nor the MC-21 used Russian avionics in thier original design and only received upxes after western avionics became unavailable, why the Il-96T and Tu-204/206 with Russian avionics even today in restating of manufacturing still need a 3-Crew-Cockpit while 2-Crew is standard in western avionic suits for nearly 40 years or why many former Eastern Bloc countries retire thier 15-20-30 year old MiGs to get 30-40 years old second hand F-16s(like Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia, etc)?
如果它们不是,那么请解释一下为什么超级喷气战机和MC-21在最初的设计中没有使用俄罗斯的航空电子设备,只有在西方航空电子设备不可用后才进行了更新;为什么伊尔-96T和图-204/206即使在今天仍然需要3人驾驶舱,而近 40 年来 2 名机组人员是西方航空电子套装的标准配置,或者为什么许多前东欧国家退役他们的15-20-30年老的米格,而购买30-40年老的二手F-16(如罗马尼亚、保加利亚、斯洛伐克等)?
Sacred mother of God! I can't believe that people would actually make such statements without knowing a single thing about the subject.
圣母玛利亚啊!我无法相信人们居然会在一无所知的情况下发表这样的言论。
俄罗斯在超级喷气战机和MC-21上使用西方航电设备,是因为它们很容易买到,成本远低于研发新设备。而伊尔-96T和图-204/206之所以需要3名机组人员,不是因为俄罗斯无法开发这样的航空电子设备,而是因为这些飞机是根据苏联的军事思想进行的设计,根据该思想,所有远程飞机都需要3名机组人员,因为在战争时这些飞机可以用作运输飞机。在这种情况下,导航员非常重要。
还有许多其他实际原因,例如易于维护。俄罗斯飞行员的薪水可观,所以这从未是一个问题。此外,俄罗斯广阔而且并非在所有地方都有先进的地勤设备。
总的来说,在苏联解体之前,实际上从未需要两名机组人员。俄罗斯可以轻松地开发出适用于2名机组人员的必要设备,而且他们已经在这方面取得了进展。
Ah, yes. The Ruzzian excuse for being 30 years behind in aircraft tech is always, “it’s not our doctrine! We can do it! Trust us! We just don’t want to, just to make it fair for the evil imperialist West!”
啊,是的。俄罗斯为航空技术落后30年的借口总是,“这不是我们的军事思想!我们能行!相信我们!我们只是不想,为了使这个世界对邪恶的帝国主义西方更加公平!
Avionics are electronics. Russian electronics are a few generations behind the western electronics. Also they are behind the Chinese avionics (but russian jet engines are superior to Chinese jet engines).
航空电子设备是电子设备。俄罗斯电子产品比西方电子产品落后几代。他们也落后于中国的航空电子设备(但俄罗斯喷气式发动机优于中国喷气式发动机)。
Russian pilots aren’t the knights of the sky… But the ghost of Kiev was trained in Russia right?
俄罗斯飞行员不是天空骑士……但是基辅幽灵(一名乌克兰飞行员,曾一度火遍西方社交媒体,被包装成“一天击落六架俄军飞机”的王牌飞行员)是在俄罗斯训练的吧?
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Ghost of Kiev wasn't real, and nobody was seriously claiming he was after like a week into the war. A lot of Ukrainian pilots have received training from the west though.
"基辅幽灵"并非真实存在,而在战争爆发后的一个星期内,已经没有人认真声称他存在。但是,许多乌克兰飞行员确实接受了西方的培训。
· Dec 14
According to propagandists like Vargason, he was more than real
根据瓦尔加森等宣传者的说法,他真实存在
Just stop.
停止这个话题
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the ghost of Kiev was nicknamed white wolf he was downed and killed by Su 35 pilot.
基辅幽灵绰号白狼,被苏35飞行员击落身亡。
Speaking of F 15s look at the c and d model.... They went far beyond their planned hours of service.
说到 F 15,看看 c 型和 d 型……它们的服役时间远远超出了计划。
The best aircraft with the best crews lost in training battles against the SU-27 with a score of 1:29.
拥有最好机组人员的最先进飞机在训练战斗中以1:29的比分输给了苏-27。
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According to the same source that determined Russia would be winning in Ukraine in three days.
据同一消息来源称,俄罗斯将在三天内赢得乌克兰战争的胜利。
According to participants in the events, F-15s took part in two series of exercises where they practiced close combat with pilots of the Lipetsk Aviation Center. Also in the Red Flag exercise, they lost against the Indian flankers 1:14.
据活动参与者介绍,F-15参加了两个系列的演习,与利佩茨克航空中心的飞行员进行了近距离格斗练习。同样在红旗演习中,他们以1:14输给了印度侧翼部队。
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lol...Soviet (Russian) gliders have always been the most advanced in aerodynamic qualities. The same goes for durability.
苏联(俄罗斯)滑翔机一直以其先进的空气动力学性能而闻名。耐久性也是如此
that's your narrative and a propaganda that was laid down long time ago , your allegation is not supported by and techinical view but hearsay , Russia don't buy warplanes unlike other countries, south America countries uses Russian warplanes, eastern Europe changed war planes after joining NATO due to their policy Slovakia, poland flies mig 29, till now you haven't challeged su 35 and it's families your hped weapons get destroyed in Ukraine every now and then plz accept dynamics , the ground shifted china has overtaken the world peacefully welcome to multipolar world where everybody is somebody.
这是你的臆想和早就在散布的谣传了,你的指控没有技术依据,只是道听途说。俄罗斯不像其他国家一样需要购买战机,南美国家使用俄罗斯战机,东欧在加入北约后更换了战机。斯洛伐克、波兰使用米格-29战机。到目前为止,你还没有对苏-35及其系列提出挑战,你所炒作的武器在乌克兰时不时被摧毁,请接受现实。政治现实已经发生变化,中国已经和平地超越了世界,欢迎来到多极世界,每个国家都是重要的。
If you have had experience of Russian military runways, you would know how robust the landing gear of Russian aircraft is. Everything else is fitted quite well, or else bits would be falling off on take off and landing. Very much like a corrugated dirt road. As to avionics, their jamming systems are without equal. The rest, is a decade plus , behind the west.
如果你有过俄罗斯军用跑道的经验,你就会知道俄罗斯飞机的起落架是多么坚固。其他所有部分都安装得非常好,否则在起飞和降落时会有零件掉落,就像在颠簸的土路上一样。至于航电系统,他们的干扰系统是无与伦比的。其他方面则在西方落后十年。
原创翻译:龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
The design of an aircraft and training hours spent have no relation. Aircrafts can be manufactured by US, Russia, France, etc. but training is left to the Airforce using it.
Indian Airforce has Russian and French aircrafts. The training would depend on the role to be played by the aircraft during war.
飞机的设计与训练时间没有直接关系。飞机可以由美国、俄罗斯、法国等国制造,但训练责任落在使用该飞机的空军上。印度空军使用俄罗斯和法国的飞机,训练将根据飞机在战争期间所扮演的角色而定。
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