为什么菲律宾不像韩国、日本、越南那样属于东亚文化圈？
Why Philippine is not part of East Asian Cultural Sphere like Korean,Japan and Vietnam
译文简介
虽然东南亚国家中有大量的东亚后裔，但其中大多数人的祖先仍是南岛民族。
正文翻译
Why Philippine is not part of East Asian Cultural Sphere like Korean,Japan and Vietnam
为什么菲律宾不像韩国、日本、越南那样属于东亚文化圈
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
is a geographic shield or other factor on why china dont totally influence philippine unlike korea japan and vietnam?
是地理屏障还是其他因素导致中国不像对韩国、日本和越南那样完全影响过菲律宾？
是地理屏障还是其他因素导致中国不像对韩国、日本和越南那样完全影响过菲律宾？
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While the countries of Southeast Asia contain a significant number of people of East Asian descent, majority of these still comprise of people of Austronesian ancestry. There's just shared more shared culture, traditions and values that the Philippines has with Malaysia, Indonesia, and Brunei, that's why.
虽然东南亚国家中有大量的东亚后裔，但其中大多数人的祖先仍是南岛民族。这就是菲律宾与马来西亚、印度尼西亚和文莱拥有更多共同文化、传统和价值观的原因。
People from Mainland Southeast Asia are Austroasiatics though
不过自东南亚大陆而来的人是南亚语族
Yeah, and the countries listed (Malaysia, Indonesia, and Brunei) are Maritime Southeast Asia.
是的，所列国家（马来西亚、印度尼西亚和文莱）都属于东南亚海洋国家。
Malaysia is half and half. The peninsular part is technically Mainland Southeast Asia.
马来西亚一半一半。严格来说，半岛部分属于东南亚大陆。
Kinh (Viet) and Khmer people are Austroasiatic. But ethnic groups like Cham and E De are also Austronesians that are native to Vietnam.
京族（越南人）和高棉人属于南亚语族。但占族和鄂德族等少数民族却是越南本土的南岛语族。
The only major Austroasiatic languages in Indochina are Vietnamese and Khmer. All in all it is a hodgepodge of various language families. Burmese is Tibeto-Burman, a distant cousin of Chinese. Thai and Lao belong to the Tai-Kradai family. If you include the Malay peninsula, then Bahasa Melayu as the major representative of Austronesian languages.
印度支那（中南半岛）唯一主要的南亚语系是越南语和高棉语。总之，这是一个由不同语系组成的大杂烩。缅甸语是藏缅语，是汉语的远亲。泰语和老挝语属于台-卡岱语系。如果把马来半岛包括在内，那么马来语就是这里南岛语系的主要代表。
And if we actually think about it. Most of the Chinese diaspora in the Southeast or at least the Philippines, are of Fujian descent. If we actually trace back Fujianese DNA during the Neolithic or even just at the Qin or Han Dynasty. We will see that will have a large amount of Austronesian DNA as well. This is because that is the source of the pre austronesian people, the Liangdao man. 23&me won’t show this because 23&me or ancestry and all other DNA sites don’t go that far. So if we think about it, the Chinese migration into the Philippines is a continuation of Austronesian DNA into the the archipelago. Would make sense why many Filipinos with Filipino and Chinese ancestry, will still look very southeast Asian.
如果我们仔细想想，散居在东南亚或至少是菲律宾的大多数华人都是福建人后裔。如果我们实际上追溯到新石器时代甚至秦汉时期的福建人DNA。如果我们追溯福建人在新石器时代，甚至是秦汉时期的 DNA。我们会发现其中也有大量的南岛民族 DNA。这是因为那里是前南岛人--亮岛人--的源头。 23&me（基因检测）不会显示这一点，因为23&me或祖先以及所有其他DNA网站都不会太过深入。因此，如果我们仔细想想，中国人移民到菲律宾是南岛人的 DNA 在群岛上的延续。这也就解释了为什么许多拥有菲律宾和中国血统的菲律宾人看起来仍然非常像东南亚人。
For one there is a big sea in between us that is greater compared to the distances from mainland to Taiwan/Kyushu. The most ‘sinicized’ SEA would be vietnam since they have a land border with them. We also didn’t experience greater sinicization as seen in your given examples due to lack of actual central control, with our Chinese influence mainly stemming from traders and migrants. Even then, the only SEA country that experienced an actual invasion by the ‘Chinese’ are the Yuan when they invaded Java. Even in that case, it was still helping a local power that them outright putting it under their direct control.
首先，与大陆到台湾/九州的距离相比，我们之间隔着一大片海。最“中国化”的东南亚地区是越南，因为他们与越南有陆地边界。由于缺乏实际的中央控制，我们也没有像你所举的例子那样经历更大规模的汉化，我们的中国影响主要来自商人和移民。即便如此，唯一经历过“中国人”实际入侵的东南亚国家是元朝入侵爪哇。即使在那种情况下，他们也只是在扶植一个地方势力，而不是直接将其置于自己的控制之下。
People should understand that overwhelming "central control" only existed when the concept of the "nation-states" got promoted and adopted in the 19th and 20th centuries.
人们应该明白，压倒性的“中央控制”只是在 19 世纪和 20 世纪“民族国家”的概念得到推广和采纳时才出现的。
Because the Chinese only came here to trade and conduct business. Philippines was more Indianized since Hindu-Buddhist influence became deep rooted in our cultures due to continuous interactions with Srivijaya and Majapahit (and maybe even from Indians themselves)
And also, Spain did cut us off from the rest of Asia except China after colonizing us
因为中国人来这里只是为了贸易和做生意。由于与三佛齐和满者伯夷（甚至可能来自印度人本身）的持续互动，菲律宾的印度化程度更高，印度教和佛教的影响在我们的文化中根深蒂固。
此外，西班牙在殖民我们之后，确实切断了我们与除中国之外的亚洲其他地区的联系。
Well the other Asian cultures werent exactly influential during the same time as Spanish colonisation:
Korea was a sick man of Asia, after being devastated by the 2 Japanese invasions and basically a fief of Qing China
Japan was in isolation under the Tokugawa policy of Sakoku
Indonesia was under the Portugese and the Dutch
Malaysia was under the British
If anything, China was relatively “stable” after the fall of the Ming.
好吧，在西班牙殖民统治的同一时期，其他亚洲文化并没有什么影响力：
朝鲜是亚洲的病夫，在经历了两次日本入侵的蹂躏之后，基本上成了清朝中国的藩属国。
日本在德川幕府政策下处于锁国状态
印度尼西亚由葡萄牙人和荷兰人统治
马来西亚由英国统治
硬要说一条的话，那就是明朝灭亡后中国相对“稳定”。
I used to consider Korea as "the Poland of Asia"
我曾经认为韩国是“亚洲的波兰”
more like ukraine, why? because the cossack are the army of russia so is korean the army of japan.
更像乌克兰，为什么？因为哥萨克是俄罗斯军队的前驱，而韩国人是日本军队的前驱。
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have never heard that before. If there is any truth in that, it is probably because Korea was colonized for 30 years by Japan.
我以前从未听说过这种说法。如果这句话属实，那可能是因为韩国被日本殖民了 30 年。
It may have to be more about post-WW2 era. Which admittedly I'm not too well read on, but most of the geopolitical influences we know today either came about during/after WW1 (the divisions of the Middle-east into zones of control by the French and British for example) or post WW2 (the cold war and its aftermaths which influenced much of world geopolitics today; i.e Velvet Revolution, and breakaway of other communist states)
The Fall of the USSR is a very interesting read since it wasn't a single clean end.
可能更多的是关于二战后。诚然，我对地缘政治不太了解，但我们今天所知的大多数地缘政治影响要么是在一战期间/之后产生的（例如，法国和英国将中东划分为不同的控制区），要么是在二战之后产生的（冷战及其后果影响了当今世界的许多地缘政治，例如天鹅绒革命和其他共产主义国家的分裂）。
《苏联的垮台》是一本非常有趣的读物，因为它的结局耐人寻味。
Well if you want to talk about the post WWII era then it seems pretty obvious why were not part of the East Asian cultural sphere.
Were in SEA, historically Vietnam (the only SEA nation in OP’s list) has been influenced by China for so long because theyre right next to each other and was even part of China at multiple points.
We’re the most Westernised Asian nation and we’re closest to the USA in terms of influence
China turned communist by 1949 and was isolationist for most of the Cold War (mainly because of the SinoSoviet splot)
好吧，如果你想谈论二战后时代，那么为什么不属于东亚文化圈的原因似乎很明显。
1. 越南（OP 列表中唯一的东南亚国家）位于东南亚，历史上长期受到中国的影响，因为它们紧邻中国，甚至在多个时期曾是中国的一部分。
2. 我们是最西方化的亚洲国家，受美国的影响最大。
3. 中国在 1949 年转变为共产主义国家，并在冷战的大部分时间里持孤立主义态度（主要原因是中苏交恶）
If anything, Spanish trade with China is the reason why a third of Filipinos have partial Chinese ancestry, like how Britain made Singapore a majority-Chinese city.
如果说有什么不同的话，那就是西班牙与中国的贸易是三分之一菲律宾人有部分华人血统的原因，就像英国使新加坡成为华人占多数的城市一样。
Before the massacre and expulsion of the Chinese, they made up around 40% of Manila's population by the late 1600s
在TS和驱逐华人之前，到 1600 年代末，华人已占马尼拉人口的 40% 左右
Isolation from asia main land + long colonial period + continuous influence from west
与亚洲大陆隔绝+长时间被殖民+西方持续影响
The pre-colonial period is more Indianized.
前殖民时期更加印度化。
Because we looked towards the Malays, Chams and Javanese for cultural development. Fellow Austronesian speakers and sharing more or less the same climate and biome. Notice how the Vietnamese (the northern part before their southward expansion), Koreans and Japanese experience the same four seasons with mainland China. Climate similarities plus being agricultural societies made translation of Chinese cultural mores easier and sensible as opposed to the Tibetans or Mongols who were politically closer and more familiar.
The rest of Southeast Asia have the same humid and hot jungle temperature with South and East India. Burmese people are genetically and linguistically close to China but their culture always looked toward India, especially via their Mon and Pyu neighbors. Tai tribes after migrating south adopted Indian civilization via Khmer Empire. And why would they expand southward in the first place? Isn't that hesitance on their part to be "Sinicized"? The Tai speakers left behind underwent Sinification and became the Zhuang minority. Nevertheless the Tai tribes along the borders between China, Myanmar and Laos share a lot more similarities with their Indianized brothers to the south.
The Philippine archipelago was closer to Borneo than to the Pearl River Delta. Before the European Age of Discovery, Taiwan was a mysterious but pirate infested island virtually ignored by Asians. So that crosses out cultural interactions between the Philippines and closest northern neighbor (although it was the Urheimat of all Austronesian speakers). The Chinese were the ones going down to the islands and trade than the other way around. Even then relationship between pre-colonial "Filipinos" and the Chinese were purely economic and political. China was never enthusiastic in exporting its culture to its neighbors. Its only foreign policy concerns were maintaining its geopolitical "center-of-the-world" stance and continuing economic privileges.
On the other hand, Indians were usually invited by Southeast Asian elites to share their ideas and sophistication. The Cambodians for example were said to be the descendants of an Indian prince and a Naga (half woman half snake) princess. The Javanese were some of the most heavily Indianized cultures in the Southeast Asia. Together with the Malays (via the Sri Vijaya Empire) and the Chams (original people of Central Vietnam), they were the "reference cultures" for pre-Hispanic Filipinos. Indeed the term "Bisaya" or "Visayas" were probably attempts of Central Filipinos to associate themselves with the Sri Vijaya Empire. Before converting to Islam, the Sulu Archipelago was part of the Javanese-dominated Majapahit Empire.
But not everyone in the Philippines adopted Indian influences. There are shades of acculturation throughout the islands, just like everywhere else in Southeast Asia. The Igorots could care less as well as the Ivatans and more eastern or interior tribes. In my estimation, the most "Indianized" ethnicities at the coming of Magellan were the Tagalogs, Kapampangans, Maranaos, Maguindanaos, Tausugs, Yakans, Sama-Bajaus, Butuanons, Bicolanos and Mangyans. The rest were more or less "Austronesian".
Also if you want to understand what would be us without the Spanish influences, back to the crossroads of destiny (dramatic, I know), the Bangsamoro cultures hold key. Note that Islam in Southeast Asian context was introduced by Indian and Chinese traders, rarely Arabs even though they came to the islands as well. Despite being Muslim, the predominant flavor in Mindanao cultures is Indianization with added touches of Malay and Javanese influences.
There were also rumors that the Yakans were descendants of Cham traders that settled in Sulu. The Tausugs eventually got jealous and expelled them because they were more favored by Chinese over the locals. I am sorry if I don't have a source for this but someone can verify it. It might be a rumor but still it's not a far fetched scenario. We were and are still neighbors after all.
The Philippines, except for the last 400 years, belonged to the Maritime Southeast Asian world where Indian influence was the elite cultural component with minor Chinese touches above a more native base.
因为我们向马来人、占族人和爪哇人寻求文化发展。他们都是讲南岛语的同胞，有着大致相同的气候和生物群落。请注意，越南人（向南扩张前的北部地区）、朝鲜人和日本人与中国大陆一样，都是有四季的。气候相似加上都是农业社会，与政治上更接近、更熟悉的西藏人或蒙古人相比，翻译中国文化习俗更容易、更适用。
东南亚其他地区与南印度和东印度有着相同的湿热丛林气候。缅甸人在基因和语言上与中国很接近，但他们的文化却一直向印度看齐，特别是通过他们的孟族和骠族邻居。泰族部落南迁后通过高棉帝国接受了印度文明。他们为什么要向南扩张呢？这难道不是他们对“汉化”的犹豫吗？留下的说傣语的人经历了汉化，成为少数民族壮族。尽管如此，中国、缅甸和老挝边境的傣族部落与南方的印度化兄弟之间还是有着更多的相似之处。
相比于珠江三角洲，菲律宾群岛更接近婆罗洲。在欧洲大发现时代之前，台湾是一个神秘且海盗出没的岛屿，几乎被亚洲人所忽视。因此，这就排除了菲律宾与最接近的北方邻居之间的文化互动（尽管它是所有讲南岛语的人的起源）。中国人前往这些岛屿进行贸易，而不是相反。即便如此，殖民前的“菲律宾人”与中国人之间的关系也纯粹是经济和政治关系。中国从不热衷于向邻国输出自己的文化。它唯一关心的外交政策是维持其“世界中心”的地缘政治地位和继续享有经济特权。
另一方面，东南亚精英通常会邀请印度人来分享他们的思想和智慧。例如，柬埔寨人据说是印度王子和纳迦公主（半女半蛇）的后裔。爪哇文化是东南亚印度化程度最高的文化之一。他们与马来人（通过三佛齐帝国）和占人（越南中部的原住民）一起，是西班牙殖民前菲律宾人的“参考文化”。事实上，“宿雾语”可能是菲律宾中部人试图将自己与三佛齐帝国联系起来的尝试。在皈依伊斯兰教之前，苏禄群岛是爪哇人统治的满者伯夷帝国的一部分。
但并非菲律宾所有人都接受了印度的影响。就像东南亚的其他地方一样，菲律宾群岛上也有不同程度的文化融合。伊哥洛特人和伊瓦坦人以及更多的东部或内陆部落都不在意印度文化。据我估计，麦哲伦到来时“印度化”程度最高的民族是他加禄人、卡潘邦人、马拉诺人、马金达诺斯人、陶苏格斯人、雅坎人、萨马-巴哈乌斯人、布图阿农人、比科拉诺人和曼吉亚人。其余的人或多或少都只是“南岛人”。
此外，如果你想了解如果没有西班牙的影响，我们会是什么样子，回到命运的十字路口（我知道这很戏剧化），邦萨摩洛文化是关键。请注意，东南亚地区的伊斯兰教是由印度和中国商人传入的，很少是阿拉伯人，尽管他们也来到了这些岛屿。尽管成为了穆斯林，但棉兰老岛文化的主要特征是印度化，并受到马来和爪哇的影响。
还有传言说，雅坎人是在苏禄定居的占族商人的后裔。由于他们比当地人更受中国人的青睐，陶苏格斯人嫉妒并最终驱逐了他们。很抱歉我没有这方面的资料或者有人可以证实这一点。这可能只是谣传，但并不牵强。毕竟，我们过去和现在都是邻居。
除了过去 400 年之外，菲律宾都属于东南亚海洋世界，印度的影响是精英文化的组成部分，在更本土的基础之上还带有少量的中国元素。
Vietnam is SEA
越南是东南亚
I've read that while Vietnam is in SEA (and also a member of ASEAN), it is culturally part of the Sinosphere since it was ruled by China for over 1,000 years from 111 BC to 939 AD.
我读到，虽然越南位于东南亚（也是东盟成员），但它在文化上是汉文化圈的一部分，因为它从公元前 111 年到公元 939 年被中国统治了 1000 多年。
Vietnam started as a break away province of China during the Han Dynasty, eventually assimilating indigenous populations and forming the ethnogenesis of modern day Vietnamese people or Nguoi Kinh.
Even so Vietnamese society is fundamentally Southeast Asian that is heavily influenced by Chinese civilization.
越南从汉朝时期开始就是中国的一个省份，最终分离并同化了土著居民，形成了现代越南人或者说京族的民族起源。
尽管如此，越南社会从根本上说是深受中华文明影响的东南亚社会。
We're Maritime Southeast Asia like Indonesia, Malaysia, etc. Vietnam and other Southeast Asian countries that share a border with China have a more "East Asian" side to their culture, especially Vietnam since they were a tributary state to China way back then.
我们是和印度尼西亚、马来西亚等东南亚一样的海洋国家。越南和其他与中国接壤的东南亚国家的文化更具有“东亚”色彩，尤其是越南，因为他们当年是中国的一个朝贡国。
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Too far. Too different looking.
太远。长得太不一样了
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Geographically separated from mainland Asia and centuries of Western colonization under Spain and the U.S..
地理上与亚洲大陆相隔，并经历了西班牙和美国几个世纪的西方殖民统治。
Because we are part of the ASEAN sphere along with Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Myanmar, and Vietnam too actually
因为我们实际上与印度尼西亚、马来西亚、新加坡、文莱、泰国、老挝、柬埔寨、缅甸和越南一样都是东盟圈的一部分
They are asking why
人家在问为什么
Because the PH is located in Southeast Asia, not East Asia proper???
The culture is more Malay than Sinified
因为菲律宾位于东南亚，而不是东亚？？？
这里的文化更多是马来文化而不是汉化文化
Vietnam, Singapre, and to an extent Taiwan are located in South East Asia proper and are highly sinicised. Why isn't that the case for the Philippines?
越南、新加坡以及一定程度上的台湾都位于东南亚本土，并且高度中国化。为什么菲律宾不是这样呢？
Vietnam had long periods of being a Chinese province while its distance from the Chinese imperial capitals made it easy for locals to form their own distinct cultural identity while continually adopting Chinese cultural influences.
Singapore started as a Malay fishing village before the Ming Dynasty provided poor fisherfolk and farmers from Southern Chinese coastal villages to leave the mainland for economic prosperity. The Melaka Strait was a goldmine for them as it provided ample opportunities to trade with locals, Indians, Arabs, Persians and other Southeast Asians. When the Europeans colonized the region, more and more Southern Chinese went down to Singapore, Penang, Phuket and other strategic island bases because they had no future in China.
Taiwan has more or less the same story as the Straits Settlements (Singapore and others) but different motivation. The late Ming and later Qing imperial government encouraged the same poor peasants from Southern China to settle in the island to:
Mitigate pirate attacks since the island was an infamous pirate cove
Discourage Europeans to make further inroad to China and create a buffer province. Taiwan was called Formosa it was a contested territory between the Spanish and the Dutch.
Vietnam is not a Chinese populated nation but Chinese influenced.
Singapore and Taiwan to China would be New York and Canada to Europeans. The first one an economic hub while the latter a frontier region filled with indigenous people.
越南长期以来一直是中国的一个省份，而由于远离中国的帝都，当地人很容易在不断吸收中国文化影响的同时形成自己独特的文化身份。
在明朝之前，新加坡最初是一个马来渔村，为中国南方沿海村庄的贫困渔民和农民提供了离开大陆寻求经济繁荣的机会。马六甲海峡为他们提供了与当地人、印度人、阿拉伯人、波斯人和其他东南亚人进行贸易的大量机会，是他们的金矿。当欧洲人殖民该地区时，越来越多的华南人前往新加坡、槟城、普吉岛和其他战略岛屿基地，因为他们在中国没有未来。
台湾的情况与海峡殖民地（新加坡等）大致相同，但动机不同。明末和后来的清朝政府鼓励同样来自中国南方的贫苦农民在岛上定居，目的是：
1. 减少海盗袭击，因为该岛是臭名昭著的海盗湾
2. 阻止欧洲人进一步入侵中国，建立一个缓冲省份。台湾被称为福尔摩沙，是西班牙人和荷兰人争夺的领土。
越南不是华人聚居的国家，但受中国影响。
新加坡和台湾（地区）之于中国，就如同纽约和加拿大之于欧洲人。前者是经济中心，后者则是充满原住民的边疆地区。