网友讨论：中国拟建粒子加速器驱动巨型芯片工厂
China plans to build a giant chip factory driven by particle accelerator
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The Dutch Government just cooked their goose when they ban EUV export to the world biggest user of their tech. For good. LOL.
当荷兰政府宣布他们禁止向世界上最大的技术用户出口EUV光刻机时，他们就已经开始走向失败了。哈哈
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
While I appreciate the effort and applaud the progress so far, lets don't forget this is still in research stage... you need to build a prototype to be able to focus and function as a lithography machine first to demonstrate the feasibility, then countless of iteration to make it usable and optimal. Using factory in the caption is just misleading as factory implies production, which is not the case here.
虽然我很欣赏中国目前的努力和进展，但不要忘记这仍处于研究阶段... 你需要建立一个原型，使其能够拥有光刻机的功能，首先证明其可行性，然后进行无数次迭代，使其可用和最佳化。在标题中使用工厂只是误导，因为工厂意味着生产，但这不是现实的情况。
The fun part of this announcement is that they are already shopping for a site to construct a colossal particle accelerator of a lithography machine. While there remains a long way to go... if they're thinking of a site, it's certainly not in the distant future. And the most tantalising part is, if it works, we're looking at not just achieving 3nm and less, but also true mass production of chips. This could totally upend the global chip order. Imagine cutting edge chips at the same price of a 14nm. Quite apart from whether this may work or not, it certainly makes the whole semi conductor space a lot more interesting to follow.
这项声明的有趣之处在于，他们已经在为建造光刻工厂的巨型粒子加速器选址了。虽然还有很长的路要走... 但如果他们正在考虑建造这样一个工厂，那肯定不是在遥远的未来。最诱人的部分是，如果它成功了，我们看到的不仅仅是实现3纳米或更小的芯片工艺制程，而且是真正的大规模生产芯片。这可能会彻底颠覆全球芯片秩序。想象一下，尖端芯片的价格与14纳米芯片相同。且不说这是否可行，它肯定会让整个半导体领域变得更加有趣。
Watch out for sanctions or sabatoge by the jelous.
小心嫉妒者的制裁或破坏。
Let's talk when is done. Everything now is speculation and thanks to articles like this. The individuals/entities involve might sanctioned to make the project fail without even starting.
应该等它建成了再谈。现在一切都是猜测，多亏了这样的新闻。这项工程所涉及的个人/实体可能会被制裁，使项目甚至没有开始就失败。
@Jorge C. Huawei got sanctioned, look what happened.
华为被制裁了，但看看后来发生了什么。
When you accelerate chips, they get fried faster though... ,)
当你加速炸薯片时，它们会炸得更快....
Genuinely hoping America sanctions Tsinghua University for there efforts in researching light source for EUV.
真心希望美国制裁清华大学在研究EUV光源方面的努力。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
All be theoretical physics is one thing but but producing practical results another! Creating accelerators to focus the light-beams would be the most difficult challenge? However, a very good luck for the advancement of physics; applaud deserving for trying this in practice.
目前一切都还是物理理论，而产生实际成果又是另一回事! 制造加速器来聚焦光束将是最困难的挑战。然而，这是一次促使物理学进步的非常好的尝试，为中国在实践中尝试这一点而鼓掌。
I regret to inform you that there have been numerous proposed alternatives to EUV, none of these alternatives have proven to be as practically viable as EUV technology. The SSMB technology under consideration is no exception.
我很遗憾地通知您，过去已经有许多替代EUV的方案被提出了，但这些替代方案都没有像EUV技术那样实际可行。而正在考虑的SSMB技术也不例外。
@Tluanga S. What is the voltage required for the DC EMALS?
你知道直流电电磁弹射系统所需的电压是多少?
@Tluanga S. Yeah, just like leaving people with incurable diseases was the only option until someone found got an alternative working. If humans didn't strive to improve we wouldn't be here today.
是啊，就像让身患不治之症的人们找到另一种治愈方法才是唯一的选择一样。如果人类没有不断地努力改进，我们今天就不会在这里了。
@Tluanga S. US/Japan/Europe reviewed synchrotrons in early 2000's, they concluded it was uneconomical.... however, this is new technology proposed in 2010. Technology evolve over time.
美国、日本、欧洲在21世纪初验证了同步加速器的可行性，它们一致认为这是不经济的方法... 然而，这是2010年提出的新技术。技术是随着时的推移间而不断发展。
sorry, there have been loads of proposed alternatives thrown around for EUV, suh as Multi-electron-beam (MEB) lithography, Nanoimprint lithography (NIL), Directed self-assembly (DSA), High-numerical-aperture (high-NA), Photonic - Laser-assisted lithography & Nanoscale direct laser writing (DLW), but none of them hold a candle to EUV. This SSMB thing is just another one on the pile. Don't get too carried away with the hype; you don't even know if it'll actually work out in the real world and be commercially viable
遗憾的是，已经有很多关于EUV的替代方案，如多电子束光刻(MEB)、纳米压印光刻(NIL)、定向自组装(DSA)、高数值孔径(high-NA)、光子激光辅助光刻和纳米直接激光书写(DLW)，但它们都无法与EUV工艺相比。这个SSMB技术只是这一堆东西中的另一个。不要被炒作冲昏头脑; 你甚至不知道它是否能在现实世界中发挥作用，是否具有商业可行性。
@Tluanga S. those were proposed in early 2000's. this synchrotron technology is new since 2010. You can't use what Japan/US reviewed in early 2000's, that is very old synchrotron technology. It has evolved over the past 20 years.
你说的那些都是在21世纪初提出的。这种同步加速器技术是2010年以后出现的新技术。你不能使用日本和美国在21世纪初验证的东西来看待它，那是非常古老的同步加速器技术。它在过去的20年里经过了不断的发展。
After taking a lead in EV by coming up with the best Batteries to power vehicles replacing ICE , China is using another path using SSMB light source to replace ASML DUV and EUV to lead the world in chip making. The SSMB light source from Tsinghua China is a.revolutionary method to produce powerful electromagnetic waves with wavelength from 0.3 mm to 13.5nm . This range cover the entire spectrum from infrared to UV at DUV and EUV. The pro for SSMB is the low mfg cost and higher power . The con is the size of the Accelerator which is huge. It may take another few years to make it commercially viable. China has the time and patience to build, iterate and fine tune until it is commercially feasible. After all , China is already able to make 7nm and 5nm with existing DUV .There is no hurry to build 2nm to 4nm chips.
中国在电动汽车领域率先推出了替代冲内燃机动力的最佳电池，现在正在用SSMB光源整合技术替代阿斯麦公司的DUV和EUV光刻技术，引领世界的芯片制造。来自中国清华大学的SSMB光源整合技术是一种革命性的新方法，它可以产生波长从0.3毫米到13.5纳米的强大电磁波。这个范围涵盖了应用在DUV和EUV上红外线到紫外线的整个光谱。SSMB的优点是制造成本低，功率高，缺点是加速器的尺寸太大了。所以可能还需要几年时间才能使其在商业上具备可行性。中国有时间和耐心来构建、迭代和微调，直到其在商业上可行。毕竟，中国已经能够用现有的DUV光刻机制造7纳米和5纳米芯片，因此他们不急于制造2到4纳米制程的芯片。
@Seow P. The size of the accelerator is estimated as two basket ball courts, that does not sound huge to me. I think when people hear accelerator, the huge Large Hadron Collider comes to mind and they presume a similar size is necessary. As to costs, TSMC has paid up to $15 billion for its 50 EUV machines that guzzle 6% of Taiwan's electricity production. $1 billion would build an SSMB facility that could provide light source to at least 16 lithography steppers.
这个加速器的大小估计有两个篮球场那么大，但对我来说这其实并不算大。我想当人们听到加速器的时候，会想到大型强子对撞机，这样他们就会认为类似的大小是必要的。至于成本，台积电为其50台EUV光刻机支付了高达150亿美元，这些机器消耗了台湾6%的电力。哪怕用10亿美元建造一个SSMB设施，但该设施可以为至少16台步进式光刻机提供光源。
@J A. I knew that the SMBB lithograpgy machine will be the size of 2 basket ball courts. Relatively, the size of ASML EUV is the size of a bus. I think 2 basket ball courts is about 10 buses with bigger heights.
我知道SMBB光刻机将有2个篮球场那么大。相对而言，阿斯麦的 EUV光刻机的大小相当于巴士的大小。我认为2个篮球场的大小大约是10辆高度更大的巴士的大小。
In cartoons, good guys always save the secret weapon and use it only after they are forced to by bad guys. I thought this plot was only to keep the kids to watch longer only.
在动画片中，好人总是隐藏其秘密武器，只有在被坏人逼迫的情况下才会使用。我以为这个情节只是为了让孩子们能看得更久。
No matter how long it takes, China will catch them. They have nowhere to escape.
不管花多长时间，中国都会赶上他们。他们无处可逃。
As the West wants to derisk from China, China will also derisk from the West.
当西方想要规避中国带来的风险时，中国也会规避西方带来的风险。
The US force China to innovate and self-reliance. Thank you, America.
美国迫使中国不得不进行创新和自力更生。谢谢你，美国。
This is potentially a security threat. The US and EU has to do something about it.
这是一个潜在的安全威胁。美国和欧盟必须为此采取一些应对措施。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
@Edmark B. If only China is as weak as Iraq, the US and its allies might has invade China in the name of national security threat, human right issues, xinjiang lies, Tibet lies, etc. The powerful PLA has create peace, prevent the invasion, saving countless life from both the Chinese side and the foreign sides. The PLA deserve a Nobel Peace Prize in our heart. They are all HEROES.
如果中国像伊拉克一样软弱，美国及其盟友可能会以国家安全受到威胁、人权问题、新疆谎言、西藏谎言等名义入侵中国。强大的中国人民解放军创造了和平，阻止了侵略，拯救了无数中国人和外国人的生命。在我们心中，解放军应该获得诺贝尔和平奖。他们都是英雄。
@Felix J. No way. Nobel peace prize is for Westerners or their sympathisers by Westerners. China has no chance , not that China care .
不可能的。诺贝尔和平奖是西方人颁发给西方人或他们的同情者的。中国没有机会获得这个奖，但中国并不在乎。
Beijing is anxious. Totally understandable. But credibility is important too. Better to tone it down, get to work, finish the work and then talk about the results.
北京方面很焦虑，这完全可以理解的。但这件事的可信度也很重要。中国最好还是低调一点，开始工作，完成工作，然后再谈论结果。
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@Erwin H. Here are the results. The US is fretting more and more about Beijing's progress, its only tool left is more sanctions
以下才是真相：美国对北京方面的进展越来越感到担忧，它剩下的唯一手段就是更多的制裁。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
@Matthew S. Oppurtunity is self make. Timing is opportunity to explore experience. Result is achivement n self satisfaction. A man with backbone will never waiting for ppl to spoon feed. If U Think U Can, U Can
机会是自己创造的。时机是探索经验的机会，结果就是成就和自我满足，有骨气的人是不会等着别人给他喂饭的。如果你认为你能做到，你就一定能做到。
US sanctions helps China double its efforts. Economic harship helps China focus more. As James Cleverly said in his speech a few months ago, China has been one of the world's top economies for 20 out of the past 21 centuries. It is merely returning to its rightful place.
美国的制裁帮助中国加倍努力，经济困境帮助中国更加专注发展。正如詹姆斯·克莱弗利（英国外交、联邦和发展事务大臣）在几个月前的演讲中所说，在过去的21个世纪中，中国在其中20个世纪都是世界上最大的经济体之一。它只是回到了它应有的位置。
@Whiskers :. A people with a national IQ of 104 and capable of building a 6000 km long wall is capable of anything.
一个国民智商104，在古代就能建造6000公里长的长城的民族没有什么事情是做不到的。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Congratulations on the persistent R&D effect and milestone achievements.
祝贺中国的持续研发得到效果并取得里程碑式的成就。
Descendant of 龍.
对于数学和科学领域来说，总是有不止一种方法可以解决问题。
Just based on plans and intentions, China is the most powerful superpower the universe has ever seen. Take that America!
就计划和目标而言，中国是有史以来最强大的超级大国。接受吧，美国!
another PowerPoint "breakthrough"
另一个PPT式的“突破”。
@da**@****** Oh no. The idea of SSMB light source for chip.making was first brought up by professor Zhao Wu way back in 2010. Professor Zhao was a student of Nobel prize winner Yang Zhenning . A proto type of SSMB has also been.built.
哦，不是这样的。用SSMB光源制造芯片的想法是由赵武教授在2010年就提出的。赵教授是诺贝尔奖得主杨振宁先生的学生。而且SSMB设施的验证原型也已建成。
While China still can't make neither DUV nor EUV machine, Western countries are at the end of EUV development phase as transistors cannot be smaller than the size of an atom. The next evolution will be to build chip in multi layers, each is mere atoms thick. This is where China falls even further behind as Applied Materials, Lam Research, Tokyo Electron and KLA shine.
虽然中国还不能制造DUV和EUV光刻机，但西方国家正处于EUV光刻工艺发展阶段的末期，因为晶体管不能小于原子的大小。下一步的发展将是制造多层芯片，每层都只有原子那么厚。在这方面，中国甚至落后于应用材料(美国公司)、泛林研究(美国公司)、东京电子(日本公司)和科兰公司(美国公司)。
@Jsh Oh wow, what an unfortunate turn of events! It seems like you had quite a rough encounter with a cat. Ouch, those bites must have really hurt your tongue. Take care and I hope you feel better soon!
哇，多么不幸的事情啊! 看来你和一只猫的遭遇很不愉快啊。哎哟，你那被咬伤的舌头一定很疼吧。多保重，希望你早日康复!
@Jsh China has started the atom thick graphene research a decade ago.
中国在十年前就开始了原子厚度的石墨烯的研究。
Excellent work to China Chairman xi and his Govt Officials for ‘put their money where their mouth is’ for building a giant chip factory to meet its ‘Self Sufficiency & Dual Circulation’ govt policy, well done! This would teach any country around the world the consequence to their own country economy if they blindly followed US Admin’s policy, no more no less, plain and simple. Finally it is great for China Govt to CONTINUOUSLY condemning Japanese Govt's irresponsibly action of releasing its radioactive nuclear reactor coolant waste water into the ocean damaging the marine lives and polluting/poisoning the environments & possibly human lives.
干得好，中国和他的政府官员“把钱花在了自己说到过的地方”，他们建造了一个巨大的芯片工厂，以满足中国的“自给自足和双重循环”政策，干得好! 这将教会世界上任何一个国家，如果他们盲目地遵循美国政府的政策，他们自己国家的经济将会受到怎样的影响，言简意赅，简单明了。最后，中国政府不断谴责日本政府不负责任地将放射性核反应堆冷却剂废水排放到海洋中，毒害海洋生物，污染/毒害环境，甚至是人类生命。这是很值得称赞的行为。
看到“美国政府、英国政府和韩国政府如今因为支持日本政府释放放射性核污水而成为世界的’邪恶轴心’，这是令人感到悲伤和无奈的”。这可能是拜登政府让拉姆·伊曼纽尔(美国大使)闭嘴的主要原因，以便在未来当身患癌症的美国人起诉日本政府导致了他们的生命即将终结时，美国政府能够更容易否认美国的责任，并要求日本赔付每人2.5亿美元。根据美国法院判决，一名美国小偷在朝鲜死亡后，朝鲜政府被要求赔付2.5亿美元。中国政府应该与其他国家和国际组织(绿色和平组织、环保人士等)密切合作，阻止日本的行动。
注: 我曾经喜欢看到拉姆·伊曼纽尔在PBS新闻时间作为嘉宾出场，但现在他越过了界线，这可能会导致未来数百万人的生命受到威胁，因为美国政府的虚伪和双重标准。
@Complete P. Incorrect. The iAEA standard for waste water is nuclear waste water NOT for water exposed directly to the core. It does not measure the other radioactive elements. Japan didn't let anyone else measure it for other radioactivity. And they choose the cheapest. Jusf dump it into the ocean.
国际原子能机构检测的废水只是核废水，而不是那些直接接触核反应堆芯的核污水。它没有测量那些水中的放射性元素，日本也没有让任何人和组织测量其排放的污水中的放射性物质。他们选择了最便宜的处理方式，把它们倒进海里了。
China is also said to be dumping nuclear sewage into the sea.
据说中国也向海里排核污水了
@Small C. China is a very large country and Chinese are smart people to know how to manage their nuclear reactor coolants. Same apply to France & USA to put all their nuclear wastes underground if you cared to find out before making any unwise comment.
中国是一个非常大的国家，中国人很聪明，他们知道如何管理他们的核反应堆冷却剂。同样的道理也适用于法国和美国，如果你在发表任何不明智的评论之前能去了解一下的话，你会知道他们会把所有的核废料都埋在地下。
@Small C. Fyi, there's no comparison between water from properly running nuclear plants and that from a damaged one like in Fukushima. If they were the same, Japan would have done it long ago and there's no need for dilution process. Dilution is cheating, btw. It's still the same level of contamination being disposed.
顺便说一句，正常运行的核电站排出的水和像福岛核电站这样受损的核电站排出的水是没有可比性的。如果它们是一样的，日本早就这么做了，也就不需要稀释的过程了。顺便说一句，稀释只不过是自欺欺人罢了，被这样处理过的核污水的污染程度还是一样的。
@Milandinia M. IAEA report, donwloaying the danger was funded by the US. Incidentally Japan has just increased her purchase of US treasury. Quid pro quo? IAEA has a tiny disclaimer stating that while they are trying to be as accurate as possible, they are not responsible for the report. In other words, it's a useless report.
国际原子能机构的报告，它的信任危机是因为这个组织是由美国资助的。顺便说一句，日本刚刚增加了对美国国债的购买。这莫非是交换条件? 国际原子能机构还有一个小小的免责声明，声明虽然他们试图尽可能检测准确，但他们不对这份报告负责。换句话说，这是一份无用的报告。
One day, China can sell chip as cheap as potato chips
总有一天，中国的芯片会像薯片一样便宜。
@Willy X. Yes. Anything is possible one day, some day. Like one day humans will travel faster than speed of light. One day.
是的，总有一天，一切皆有可能。就像有一天人类的旅行速度会超过光速一样。会有这么一天的。
@Lau C. Another sour grape, suffering the Stockholm Syndrome.
又一个患了斯德哥尔摩综合症的酸葡萄。
Intel is going to mass produce 2nm chips 1H 2024 then 1.8nm in 2H 2024 while China is researching EUV light source. EUV light source was first commercialized by Cymer USA in 2008. Can we say China is decades behind regarding EUV light source, if not centuries.
英特尔将在2024年上半年量产2纳米芯片，2024年下半年量产1.8纳米芯片，而中国则正在研究EUV光源。EUV光源于2008年由美国的Cymer公司率先实现商业化。我们至少能说中国在EUV光源方面落后了几十年，如果不说是几个世纪的话。
@Jsh Another sour grape, suffering the Stockholm Syndrome.
又一个患了斯德哥尔摩综合症的酸葡萄。
@Jsh Please provide the source regarding Intel will be mass production of 2nm chips next year because I mostly learn that advanced chips, ie n3e, are produced by TSMC. In order to mass production of 3nm chips, fabs have to switch to adopt GAA instead of FINfet, while both TSMC and Samsung not yet mastered the new technique.
请提供英特尔明年将量产2纳米芯片的消息来源，在我了解到的先进芯片的制造上，如3纳米芯片是由台积电生产的。为了量产3纳米芯片，晶圆厂必须改用全环绕栅极制程工艺而非鳍式场效应晶体管工艺，而台积电和三星都尚未掌握这项新技术。
@Jsh You're completely missing the point. The development of alternative means of producing an euv light source means that China can become self reliant without trying to replicate the multiple cutting edge technologies that are integrated into the ASML machines.
你完全没有抓住要点。开发生产极紫外光源的替代方法意味着，中国可以实现自力更生，而不必试图复制集成到阿斯麦生产的光刻机中的多种尖端技术。
Well done, Chinese scientists! A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. Now, a very important first step has been taken, I can't wait to see you crush US sanctions in the near future!
干得好，中国科学家! 千里之行，始于足下。现在，中国迈出了非常重要的第一步，我迫不及待地想看到你在不久的将来粉碎美国的制裁的场面了!
@Matthew S. I believe many like the word "crush" in your comment.
我相信很多人喜欢你评论中的“粉碎”这个词。
This is a real game changer. It will make a lot of western technology obsolete and irrelevant. Go ahead put in more sanctions. The more the better for China as they have no alternative but to create their own and do it better
这是一个真正的游戏规则改变者。它将使许多西方技术过时和无关紧要。继续施加更多的制裁吧，这对中国来说越多越好，因为他们别无选择，只能自己创造并做到更好。
@Egay N. Totally. I also have a plan to make a inter galactic transporter that goes as fast as the electrons in this planned particle accelerator. Total game changer.
对极了。我还计划制造一个星系间传输装置，它的速度和这个计划中的粒子加速器中的电子一样快。并且这完全改变了游戏规则。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
LOL “There is still a long way to go before our independent development of EUV lithography machines, but SSMB-based EUV light sources give us an alternative to the sanctioned technology,”
哈哈，“在我们独立开发EUV光刻机之前还有很长的路要走，但基于SSMB技术的EUV光源为我们提供了一种替代那些专利壁垒的另外一种选择。”
@JsH China did the same thing with EVs due to longterm planning and thinking. Now the West is screaming 'subsidies!' Oh the hypocrisy!
由于长期规划和思考，中国在电动汽车领域上也做了同样的事情。现在西方国家在狂喊“补贴!” 哦，真是虚伪!
@Whiskers :. Anyone can make EVs, the only difference is China pays its workers next to nothing.
任何国家都可以制造电动汽车，唯一的区别是中国几乎不支付工人工资。
@Whiskers :. Don't forget solar panels that were extremely expensive till China started producing them
别忘了太阳能电池板，在中国开始生产之前它的价格可是非常昂贵的。
Say what? After Huawei's out-of-nowhere chip, this, however, should not surprise anyone - except maybe those smiling US senators and flawmakers. China will need to post agents around the facility to ensure there is no US sabotage.
你说什么呢? 然而，在华为悄无声息地推出自研芯片之后，这个新闻应该不会让任何人感到惊讶了吧——也许那些面带微笑的美国参议员和缺陷制造者除外。中国需要在这个设施周围部署特工，以确保它们不受到美国的破坏。
Feel sad about scientists who always need to splash big and no real stuff these days. Just to pacify anxiety of C.. leaders. "Plans in progress" to construct and how many decades will it take to complete accelerator , which works to commercialize chip manufaturing (If any)?
为科学家们感到难过，这些天他们总是需要大肆宣传，却没有真正的东西。这只是为了安抚中国的焦虑。“正在进行的计划”建设和完成加速器需要几十年的时间呢？这个工厂将芯片制造商业化又要多久呢(如果有的话)?
@Lau C. Decades? I can guarantee you it will be ready long before the forced building of the TSMC plant in the US.
几十年? 我可以向你保证，在台积电在美国的强迫下在美国建设的工厂完成之前，它就会准备好。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
No kidding! There is no leap at all between a plan for building a giant particle accelerator and overtaking America in advanced chip making. None.
没有开玩笑! 建造巨型粒子加速器的计划与在先进芯片制造方面超越美国之间没有任何促进作用，一个也没有。
@Complete P. Nah, I think the US will fail because Biden said Modi was his new best friend. LOL!
不，我认为美国会失败，因为拜登说莫迪是他最好的新朋友。哈哈!
@Spider L. EUV lithography machine cannot stay at the top forever, something more advanced will emerged and overtake it. Looks like SSMB-EUV light source will be the one emerging
极紫外光刻机不可能永远保持领先地位，会有更先进的东西出现并超越它。看来SSMB-EUV光源将会是一个新兴的光源。