WSJ：欧洲今年初陷入衰退，欧洲人越来越穷。美国网友和欧洲网友争论生活质量
WSJ - Europeans Are Becoming Poorer as Europe has tipped into Recession Early This Year. ‘Yes, We’re All Worse Off.’
译文简介
《华尔街日报》--欧洲今年初陷入衰退，欧洲人越来越穷。“是的，我们的情况都更糟了。”
正文翻译
WSJ - Europeans Are Becoming Poorer as Europe has tipped into Recession Early This Year. ‘Yes, We’re All Worse Off.’
《华尔街日报》--欧洲今年初陷入衰退，欧洲人越来越穷。“是的，我们的情况都更糟了。”
《华尔街日报》--欧洲今年初陷入衰退，欧洲人越来越穷。“是的，我们的情况都更糟了。”
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welcome to the future, peasants.
欢迎来到未来，农民。
“You will own nothing and you will be happy”
“你将一无所有，你将得到幸福”
Not really. The article is not about owning anything. The argument goes beyond that- you will not only own nothing, you would also be not able to feed yourself and make yourself comfortable with heat and air conditioning. This is recipe for anarchy, not happiness.
其实不然。这篇文章不是在说拥有什么。文章的论点远不止于此--你不仅将一无所有，还将无法养活自己，无法让自己舒适地享受暖气和空调。这将导致无政府状态，而不是幸福。
Welcome back to the Soviet unx comrade.
欢迎回到苏联，同志。
I love Europe, especially Spain where I lived for a couple of year, but godamn America is a machine. My plan is to make all the money I can here and retire early in Valencia.
我喜欢欧洲，尤其是我住了几年的西班牙，但该死的美国就是一台赚钱机器。我的计划是在这里赚到足够的钱，然后在瓦伦西亚享受退休生活。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
No please don't! We're real tired of the americans. All the immigration actually. Stay away from europe and leave us alone. Retire in florida if you like the american corporatism so much.
不，请不要！我们真的厌倦了美国人。实际上厌倦了所有的移民。请远离欧洲，别打扰我们。如果你非常喜欢美国的社团主义，就在佛罗里达退休吧。
Too bad fam. My fam and I know the language and the cost of living over there is hella cheap for this Californian. It’s for your own good though, my money will help the economy
太可惜了。我和我的家人都懂当地的语言，而且对于我这个加州人来说，那里的生活费用非常便宜。而且这对你们也有好处，像我这样的人的钱会有助于经济
But your mindset will poison the well. If you haven't noticed that's the leightmotiv for europeans. Mindset over grind-set.
但你的心态会毒化这口井。如果你没注意到，这就是欧洲人的心态。心态重于收益。
Yup. Fuel taxes are back on too, plastic tax is live aswell. Here in the Netherlands at least. It feels like every month we get fucked some more.
是的。燃油税也恢复了，塑料税也开始实施。至少在荷兰这里是这样。每个月我们都感觉生活更操蛋了。
Netherlands is one of the few countries that avoided recession though and who’s GDP is still growing.
This article has a very outdated view on citizens “getting richer or poorer” based on GDP growth. GDP can grow while on average your population is getting poorer, it just requires uneven distribution, which the Netherlands is particularly good in as a tax-dodging haven for the richest.
荷兰是少数几个避免了经济衰退的国家之一，其国内生产总值仍在增长。
这篇文章对公民根据 GDP 增长“变富或变穷”的看法非常过时。GDP 可以在人口平均变穷的同时增长，只是需要分配不均，而荷兰作为最富有者的避税天堂，在这一点上尤为擅长。
It’s crazy. It’s like the government has one go-to for everything, tax it more.
这很疯狂。就好像政府对所有事情都只有一个办法，那就增加税收。
Jesus you can read the Murdoch through that article.
天哪，你可以通过这篇文章来了解默多克。
I stopped at "the French are eating less fois gras." That stunk of "the youth are buying fewer diamonds"
我读到“法国人吃的鹅肝越来越少了”就读不下去了。有种“年轻人买钻石越来越少了”的恶臭
Bruh, the average price of bottle of wine in France sells for $5-$8. In the US 80-90% of wine sells for under $10. They throw out this goofy stereotype trying to imply the French work 2 hours a day and then burn $80 on a meal.
噗，法国一瓶葡萄酒的平均价格为 5-8 美元。在美国，80-90% 的葡萄酒售价低于 10 美元。他们抛出这种愚蠢的刻板印象，试图暗示法国人每天工作 2 小时，然后在一顿饭上花 80 美元。
You can get a fine bottle of wine for a couple of euros in France, in the US northeast, more like $15 + tax.
Source: having lived and frequently traveling to both places.
在法国，几欧元就能买到一瓶好酒，而在美国东北部，则需要 15 美元加税。
资料来源：我曾在这两个地方生活过，也经常去这两个地方旅行。
You can get an amazing bottle of wine in France for €15. The same bottle in the US would be above $30 just from duties, shipping and middlemen.
在法国你可以花 15 欧元买到一瓶上好的葡萄酒。同样的一瓶酒，仅关税、运费和中间商的费用就要超过 30 美元。
But seeing LVMH and Hermes recent valuations, it seems they're buying more luxury handbags to compensate for fois gras.
但从 LVMH 和爱马仕最近的估值来看，他们似乎在购买更多的奢侈包包来弥补鹅肝酱。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
its not Europeans buying that shit but Asian immigrants
买这些东西的不是欧洲人而是亚洲移民
27% of LVMH revenue is from the US. 24% is from europe. The rest of the world like luxury a whole of a heck more than europeans do. We like stability and not paying much for essentials.
LVMH 27% 的收入来自美国。 24%来自欧洲。世界其他地方比欧洲人更喜欢奢侈品。我们喜欢稳定，不花太多钱购买必需品。
It lost me at describing Europeans as an "aging population that enjoys their free time." Only a boomer that thinks the secret to a good "comfortable" life is grinding all their free time away at a job would describe anyone that way.
我看到将欧洲人描述为“享受空闲时间的老龄化人口”就停了。只有那些认为美好“舒适”生活的秘诀就是把所有空闲时间都花在工作上的婴儿潮一代才会这样描述其他人。
How ironic that you think this is a sustainable way of life while deriding "boomers" in the same breath. How do you think their children and grandchildren feel about it when they have to bear the burden of their collapsing countries? Do you think they'll be happy working 30 hours a week but living in continually worsening conditions?
你认为这（减少工作时间，享受生活）是一种可持续的生活方式，同时嘲笑“婴儿潮一代”，这是多么讽刺。当你们的子孙以后不得不承受国家崩溃的重担时，你认为他们的感受如何？你认为他们会高兴地每周工作 30 小时，同时生活条件不断恶化吗？
Bro, it is literally the boomers fault. Keynes predicted we'd be having 15 hour work weeks by now. Production and efficiency has skyrocketed but wages have remained stagnant. That is fault of weak policy and regulation. That is the result of weakening labor unxs.
Your last sentence doesn't even make sense. Do you think they'll be happy working 40+ hours but living in continually worsening conditions which is what we are currently experiencing anyway?
I would gladly take less time at work so that I have more time to be involved in my community and politics which is exactly what corporations don't want.
兄弟，这其实根本就是“婴儿潮一代”的错。凯恩斯曾预言，我们这个时代每周只需工作 15 小时。而现在虽然生产和效率飞速提高，但人们工资却停滞不前。这是政策和监管不力的过错。也是工会被削弱的结果。
你的最后一句话根本说不通。你认为他们会乐意每周工作 40 小时以上，同时生活条件却不断恶化吗（这正是我们目前正在经历的）？
我很乐意减少工作时间，这样我就有更多的时间参与社区和政治活动，而这恰恰是企业不希望看到的。
Really, it doesn't make sense to you that 25% lower productivity leads to lower quality of life at a national level?
生产率降低 25% 会导致全国生活质量下降，这对你来说真的不意味着什么吗？
Do you think they'll be happy working 30 hours a week but living in continually worsening conditions?
Why does this have to be the case? Why does hours less than 40 per week have to equate to worse living conditions?
I seriously don't understand this attitude that 40+hrs is this magical law of physics, ordained by God himself, and anything less than that is scientifically guaranteed to cause societal collapse. It's complete nonsense.
Worker productivity has skyrocketed over the decades (even in Europe) yet their relative wealth has not. The problem is and always has been that almost all wealth that is generated is funneled upwards to help rich people put more diamonds on their yachts. There is absolutely no reason a 30hr week (which isn't even a thing in Europe anyway) couldn't be sustainable.
“你认为他们会乐意每周工作 30 小时，但生活条件却不断恶化吗？”
为什么一定要这样？为什么每周工作时间少于 40 小时就等同于生活条件恶化？
我真的不理解这种态度，认为 40 小时以上是某种神奇的物理定律，是上帝亲自订下的规定，任何少于 40 小时的工作时长在科学上都会导致社会崩溃。这完全是无稽之谈。
几十年来，工人的生产率直线上升（即使在欧洲），但他们的相对财富却没有增加。问题在于，几乎所有产生的财富都被向上输送，以帮助富人在游艇上镶嵌更多的钻石。每周工作 30 小时（在欧洲这根本就不是事）绝对没有理由不可持续。
Where is the irony? I was mocking US boomers for thinking the stupid amount of hours they plug in at work has anything to do with productivity. Its not about how many hours you put in but how effective you are during your peak hours of the day. Me or any one of my millenial coworkers are twice as productive as any one of our boomer colleagues because we are more tech savvy and knock out our tasks efficiently. All the boomers ive worked with are slow to or outright refuse to learn new things and think spending more time sitting at a desk is some kind of virtue/bragging right. It certainly wont change anything in this situation with technology exponentially increasing our productivity. Us working more hours wont change anything.
讽刺在哪里？我嘲笑美国婴儿潮一代，这些人认为他们在工作中不知所谓地投入时间，仿佛这跟生产力有任何关系。重要的不是你投入了多少时间，而是你在一天的高峰时段的效率如何。我或我的任何一位千禧一代同事的工作效率是婴儿潮一代同事的两倍，因为我们更精通技术，可以更有效地完成我们的任务。与我共事的所有婴儿潮一代效率都很低下或完全拒绝学习新事物，并认为花更多时间坐在办公桌前是某种美德/吹牛的权利。在这种情况下，随着技术呈指数级提高我们的生产力，工时肯定不会改变任何事情。我们工作更多的时间不会改变任何事情。
Europeans should discuss how to fix their economic growth
Europe has lagged behind the US economy for decades. Free healthcare tangent topic doesn't change the economic angle.
Europeans need to stop finding reasons why they're still better than US to avoid discussing (1).
I'm only invested in ASML which does 1% of sales to EU and LVMH does 21% of sales to EU.
I find the lack of advanced companies from EU disappointing. Europeans seem to have their head in the sand whenever an article on Europe's economy pops up. Meanwhile when an article on US economy appears, everyone is all to eager to discuss the topic.
1. 欧洲人应讨论如何解决经济增长问题
2. 几十年来，欧洲经济一直落后于美国。切入免费医疗的话题并不能改变经济角度。
3. 欧洲人需要停止找理由来逃避讨论问题（1）。
我只投资了 ASML，它在欧盟的销售额占 1%，而 LVMH 在欧盟的销售额占 21%。
我发现欧盟缺乏先进的公司，这令人失望。每当有关于欧洲经济的文章出现时，欧洲人似乎都把头埋在沙子里。与此同时，当一篇关于美国经济的文章出现时，每个人都会迫不及待地讨论这个话题。
(some) Europeans want to. But there is no fertile ground, the continent is old and generally the requirements are not there. There is not even a candidate political movement for change.
（一些）欧洲人想这样做。但这里没有肥沃的土壤，欧洲大陆历史悠久，总体上不具备条件。甚至没有一个变革的政治运动候选人。
Also „Europe“ isnt a country with the same plans and wishes. Every country wants its own ideas to get along and therefore barely any compromises get finished.
此外，“欧洲”并不是一个有着相同计划和愿望的国家。每个国家都希望自己的想法能够实现，因此几乎无法达成任何妥协。
Europeans need to stop finding reasons why they're still better than US to avoid discussing (1).
I'm English and this 100% applies to the UK the most. Look on r/AskUK about people moving to America and you'd be shocked at the comments people make. They genuinely act like it's a third world country.
Like, I get that America has a long way to go in a lot of ways (gun control/healthcare/workers rights being the immediate things that spring to mind), but there's no denying that the average person in the US is richer, has a bigger house, and drives a nicer car.
[ETA] I feel like all these responses are just kinda proving OP's point lol?
“欧洲人需要停止寻找他们仍然比美国好的理由，以避免讨论（1）。”
我是英国人，这 100％ 最适用于英国。在 r/AskUK 上查看有关人们移居美国的信息，你会对人们的评论感到震惊。他们真的把美国当成了第三世界国家。
我知道美国在很多方面还有很长的路要走（枪支管制/医疗保健/工人权利是我最先想到的），但不可否认的是，美国的普通人更富有，有更大的房子，开更好的车。
[编辑]我觉得所有这些回应都在证明 OP 的观点，笑？
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
there's no denying that the average person in the US is richer, has a bigger house, and drives a nicer car.
Probably the saddest way to look at the world.
“不可否认的是，美国人平均更加富裕，拥有更大的房子，开着更好的汽车。”
也许这是看待世界最悲哀的方式。
There is more to life than how big your house is and how nice the car you drive looks. America is a country riddled with massive inequalities, very high crime, and inferior healthcare outcomes. Even with all the money they seemingly have, the average American is still significantly worse off than the average European regarding QoL measures, such as Life expectancy, obesity rates, happiness levels etc...yes America is richer, but I would rather still live in Western Europe.
生活不仅仅是你的房子有多大、你开的车有多漂亮。美国是一个充满严重不平等、高犯罪率和低劣医疗保健结果的国家。即使他们看似拥有那么多钱，但在生活质量指标（例如预期寿命、肥胖率、幸福水平等）方面，美国人的平均水平仍然明显低于欧洲人的平均水平……是的，美国更富有，但我宁愿继续生活在西欧。
I mean to each their own. America certainly has its issues, lots of which many Americans are very frustrated by, however, America is a very different place state to state and I would definitely rather live in Massachusetts or New Jersey than Portugal or Belgium if I was a young person right now. If you’re comparing living in Barcelona to living in Mississippi then give me Barcelona any day. If it’s San Diego vs suburban Rome though? San Diego
America really is a nice place to live. Maybe not on average always as nice as the best of Western Europe and I get why people would prefer Western Europe, but the most successful places in the US are absolutely amongst the best places to live in the world.
我觉得各取所需。美国当然有它的问题，许多美国人对其中的许多问题感到非常沮丧，但是，美国各州的情况大不相同，如果我现在是一个年轻人，我肯定宁愿住在马萨诸塞州或新泽西州，而不是葡萄牙或比利时。如果你把生活在巴塞罗那和生活在密西西比州相提并论，那我宁愿选择巴塞罗那。如果是圣地亚哥和罗马郊区相比呢？圣地亚哥
美国确实是个宜居之地。也许平均来说不如西欧最好的地方，我也明白为什么人们更喜欢西欧，但美国最成功的地方绝对是世界上最适合居住的地方之一。
Ahh yes. Another person with only a western perspective. Being born in America is like winning the lottery, but you have to take advantage of everything you get here. Poor people in the US can get basically free healthcare thru the affordable care act, a free education through the public school system and community college, free food through food stamps, and lots of other benefits. The opportunities are there if you have the wherewithall to find them. Cue the but, but, buts from the professional termanilly online folks. It's great here and maybe if you had experience living in other countries like I have, you'd realize this.
啊，是的。另一个只有西欧视角的人。出生在美国就像中了彩票，但你必须利用好在这里得到的一切。在美国，穷人可以通过《可负担医疗法案》获得基本免费的医疗保健，通过公立学校系统和社区大学获得免费教育，通过食品券获得免费食物，还有很多其他福利。只要你有能力找到机会，机会就在那里。随便你们这些在线论坛的“专业人士”怎么“但是，但是，但是”。这里很棒，也许如果你像我一样有过在其他国家生活的经历，你就会意识到这一点。
Just looking at these responses, I think you are absolutely correct.
"But my quality of life!" Says the person roasting in a heatwave who cant afford to turn on the AC.
SMH...
看了这些回复，我觉得你说得完全正确。
“但我的生活质量！” 在热浪中被烤却没钱开空调的人说道。
真是...
I was born and raised in a developing country and currently live in western Europe. If you ask me to choose to btw my country of birth and USA, I will definitely choose the USA, no question; after all it is a very rich country where you can make lots of money( as we have already established). However once you are already living a comfortable enough life, the jarring issues with the USA start to manifest, and like I said, QoL wise the USA is doing much worse than other developed countries. This is not a western view..it is a logical one based on current facts.
我在发展中国家出生和长大，目前住在西欧。如果让我在出生国和美国之间做出选择，我肯定会毫无疑问地选择美国；毕竟美国是一个非常富裕的国家，在那里你可以赚很多钱（正如我们已经确定的那样）。然而，一旦你已经过上了足够舒适的生活，美国的问题就开始显现出来，正如我所说的，美国的生活质量远不如其他发达国家。这不是西欧的观点，而是基于当前事实的逻辑观点。
Part of that is cultural, obesity (and by extension lower life expectancy) is based on lifestyle, people tend to prefer eating garbage here. But it depends on where you go, Southern California has a large amount of thinner people.
People can be thin and healthy here, but like buying a 50k SUV and 2,500 sq/f house with five bedroom for a family of three on credit…. Americans just like excess including their foods, cars, and houses
部分原因是文化、肥胖（以及较低的预期寿命）是基于生活方式的，这里的人们往往更喜欢吃垃圾食品。但这取决于你去哪里，南加州有大量身材苗条的人。
这里的人可以很瘦，也可以很健康，但却喜欢贷款买一辆价值 5 万美元的 SUV 和 2500 平方英尺的五居室房子，供一家三口居住....美国人就是喜欢过剩，包括他们的食物、汽车和房子
Economic growth isn't a reliable indicator of how well off people are. France, Germany, NL etc have lower growth yet their living standards aren't lower if not higher than in the us adjusted for purchasing power parity, and literacy rate and life expectancy is higher. You can't compare providence states with ultra capitalist states just in term of gdp per capita
经济增长并不是衡量人们富裕程度的可靠指标。法国、德国、荷兰等国的经济增长较低，但按购买力平价调整后，他们的生活水平即使不高于美国，也不低于美国，而且识字率和预期寿命更高。不能仅以人均 GDP 来和一个天命之国以及极端资本主义国家比较。
Exactly. From an ultra capitalist perspective, Europe is an awful place because they have high taxes and slower growth. But Europe's economy and tax struture values people over profits and the laws are written as such.
America values wealth, growth and low taxes and our laws are heavily influenced by corporations. It's not even a new thing - our country's founding was based around low taxation and our economy was created on the back of cheap/free labor from slavery to indentured servitude. The US has used the military to break unx strikes starting in the 1800s. We've fought multiple wars because of taxes, slavery, and Communism.
Quality of life issues like education, health care, and a social safety net are simply a non-issue in American politics.
没错。从极端资本主义的角度来看，欧洲是个糟糕的地方，因为他们的税率高、增长慢。但欧洲的经济和税收结构重人轻利，法律也是这样规定的。
美国重视财富、增长和低税收，而且我们的法律在很大程度上受到公司的影响。这甚至不是什么新鲜事--我们的建国基础就是低税收，我们的经济是在从奴隶制到契约奴役的廉价/免费劳动力的基础上建立起来的。从19世纪开始，美国就使用军队来打击工会罢工。因为税收、奴隶制和共产主义，我们打了多场战争。
教育、医疗保健和社会安全网等生活质量问题在美国政治中根本不会拿出来讨论。
That's the point I'm making. Why make the comparison between US and Europe living standards instead of looking at how Europe is progressing itself?
From the article, the eurozone's GDP has increased from 14.22Tn in 2008 to 15.07Tn in 2023. US GDP has increased from 14.77Tn in 2008 to 26.86Tn in 2023.
There's also a graph showing that wages have dropped in Greece, Spain and Italy since 2008, UK is basically flat, France and Germany have made good gains but have went backwards since 2019.
Are the people living in those countries satisfied to see their wages going backwards or nowhere? Is Europe as a bloc satisfied to see they have not grown since 2008, so 15 years?
They had their healthcare system back then too, I'm sure they would also appreciate more money
这就是我要说的重点。为什么要比较美国和欧洲的生活水平，而不是看看欧洲自己要如何进步？
从文章中可以看出，欧元区的 GDP 从 2008 年的 14.22 万亿美元增至 2023 年的 15.07 万亿美元。美国的 GDP 从 2008 年的 14.77 万亿美元增至 2023 年的 26.86 万亿美元。
还有一张图显示，希腊、西班牙和意大利的工资自 2008 年以来有所下降，英国基本持平，法国和德国取得了不错的增长，但自 2019 年以来有所倒退。
生活在这些国家的人们看到自己的工资倒退或毫无起色是否满意？欧洲作为一个集团，看到自己自 2008 年以来 15 年没有增长，满意吗？
他们当时也有自己的医疗保健系统，我相信他们如果有更多的钱一定会很开心
Everyone appreciates more money but obviously in most countries european citizens have no interest in giving up social benefits, ecology and social justice for the sake of growth otherwise they would have voted different governments to deregulate labor market and economy
每个人都喜欢更多的钱，但显然在大多数国家，欧洲公民没有兴趣为了增长而放弃社会福利、生态和社会正义，否则他们会投票给不同的政府来放松对劳动力市场和经济的管制
You're not taking into account that the trajectory is going downhill for Europeans and that's the issue. Not so bad now but come back in a decade when Europe's influence in the world stage isn't as strong because of a weaker economy.
你没有考虑到欧洲人的发展轨迹正在走下坡路，这就是问题所在。现在还不算太糟，但再过十年，由于经济疲软，欧洲在世界舞台上的影响力将大不如前。
In 2008 EUR/USD was 1.47, now its 1.1. Inflation in the US has been much stronger than Eurozone. 2008 Eurzone debt/gdp was 69%, now 92% while US grew from 63% to 123%.
Adjusting for these numbers there is still a difference, but its not nearly as large.
And most people I know are satisfied. I am certain I am.
2008 年欧元兑美元为 1.47，现在为 1.1。美国的通胀率远高于欧元区。2008 年欧元区债务/GDP 为 69%，现在为 92%，而美国则从 63% 增长到 123%。
对这些数字进行调整后，仍然存在差距，但没想象中大。
我认识的大多数人都很满意。我就是其中之一。
Germany had a pretty good economic model for awhile but they became way too relaxed and dependent on Russian energy and Chinese markets…. Both of those blew up in their faces between the Ukraine war and the strict Chinese Covid lock downs and resulting economic slow down (on top of other background economic issues in China)
德国有一段时间拥有相当好的经济模式，但他们变得过于放松并依赖俄罗斯能源和中国市场……在乌克兰战争和中国严格的新冠封锁以及由此导致的经济放缓之间（加上中国其他经济问题），这两件事都让德国撕下了岁月静好的伪装。
I agree. I recently moved to the US (not permanently) and can now really see the differences/opportunities. The potential for career growth is just way better here than back at home.
And I really see the issue of lagging behind the US economy and not investing enough in future industries/technologies. But life in my home country is (for the moment) extremely comfortable, crime is considerably lower than in the US, they have quite a good health system - so in general most of the population don't see the need for modernization and future-proofing the economy. Which is very concerning.
我同意。我最近搬到了美国（不是永久性的），现在才真正看到其中的差异/机会。这里的职业发展潜力要比国内好得多。
我确实看到了落后于美国经济的问题，以及在未来产业/技术方面投资不足的问题。但我的家乡（目前）生活非常舒适，犯罪率比美国低得多，他们有相当好的医疗系统--所以总的来说，大多数人并不认为有必要实现经济现代化和面向未来。这一点非常令人担忧。
Why is that concerning if they are living happier lives?
What's concerning is your attitude and people like you.
如果他们过着更幸福的生活，为什么还要担心呢？
有问题的是你的态度和像你这样的人。
Because the current attitude leads long-term to problems and loss of life quality in the next 20-30 years. That’s the only reason why I find it concerning.
因为目前的态度会导致未来 20-30 年内的长期出现问题并导致生活质量下降。这是我觉得它令人担忧的唯一原因。
They have been becoming poorer for a long time, maybe they just realized it with the recent acceleration but Europe has been in decline relative to the rest of the world for like seriously a century
他们变得更穷已经很长一段时间了，也许他们只是在最近的加速发展中意识到了这一点，但欧洲相对于世界其他地区的衰落已经持续了一个世纪之久。