印度网民：曼尼普尔邦 - 主流媒体没有报道的真实情况part2
The real situation of Manipur that is not covered by mainstream media.
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各打五十大板
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详见part1
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Meiteis are implementing the guju model. They did vote bjp after all
梅泰人在实施古吉拉特模式。毕竟他们选了人民党。
This so so false. Kukis voted for BJP as well. Most of the Kuki MLAs are BJP except a few from Saikul, Saitu and Singhat constituency. You can't lie about something that's easily available on the Internet unless that's your core intention.
这是大错特错。库基人也投票给人民党。除了赛库尔、赛图和Singhat选区的少数议员外，库基人的大多数议员都是人民党的。你不能对互联网上很容易找到的东西撒谎，除非那是你的核心目的。
It's painful to watch people from outside paint this clash as a bjp fueled one or Hindus vs Christians. Fhe truth is so muddled that there isn't one Truth at this point. Both sides have committed atrocities snd at this point we need to give power to a truly neutral force and take down armed miscreants on both sides.
看着外界把这场冲突描绘成人民党煽动的冲突，或印度教徒与基督教徒的冲突，真是让人痛苦。真相是如此混乱，以至于到现在还没有一个真相。双方都犯下了暴行，在这一点上，我们需要把权力交给一支真正中立的力量，并打倒双方的武装恶棍。
Exactly. I'm non political and I am not even a part of this sub. But this subreddit looks highly leftist. Both the state and centre BJP is wrong here, not denying that. But people choose what they feel right. If this was forecasted, they would have probably fought for presidents rule before the last election.
完全正确。我不是政治人士，我甚至没有加入这个版，但是这个版块看起来非常左派。邦和中央人民党在这个问题上都错了，这一点不容否认。但是人们会选择他们认为正确的。如果预测到这个结果，他们可能会在上次选举之前争夺总统的统治权。
Did those kuki mlas resign by now
现在那些库基族邦议会议员辞职了吗？
Civil war literally
实际上是内战。
This is what bjp wants for the whole county.
这就是人民党希望全国出现的情况。
Few days back there was a news of the Kuki community buring down an ambulance carrying a child and his mother. They were both burner alive. No community is saint here. I don't know what center is playing at. Why can't they implement presidential rule? How many innocent lives are they going to claim now? Center should be held accountable for each and every life lost.
几天前，有一个新闻，库基族群烧毁了一辆载有一个孩子及其母亲的救护车。他们都被活活烧死了。这件事里没有哪个族群是神圣的。我不知道中央在玩什么把戏。为什么他们不能实行总统制? 他们现在又要夺走多少无辜的生命? 中央政府应该为每一个逝去的生命负责。
Lie, it was a kuki woman and kid. Get it right buddy. Meiteis have tarnished themselves forever with these acts.
谎言，那个女人和孩子是库基人。搞清楚，伙计。梅泰人的这些行为给他们抹上了永远的污点。
It's the opposite actually. They news had clearly mentioned that it's the meitei who did it.
Centre doesn't want its BJP government to fall. It's simple.
实际上正好相反。新闻里明确提到是梅泰人干的。
中央政府不希望它的人民党政府垮台。很简单。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
I guess that both sides will blame the centre if president rule is imposed. And it will lead to separatism. This must be the thinking of the centre.
我猜如果实行总统制，双方都会指责中央政府。这将导致分裂主义。这一定是中央的想法。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
What happened to that “squad” that was sent by Amit Shah like month ago.
一个月前阿米特·沙阿派来的“小队”怎么了?
AFSPA. Those squads and armies are just peacekeeper.
AFSPA。那些小队和军队只是维和部队。
梅泰人在向军队投掷石块。库基族群在村里的麦克风上宣布，他们与军队不是敌人，并要求他们为了自己着想离开村庄。
In my opinion, internet Shutdown in fear of 'misinformation' is only an excuse.
在我看来，因为害怕“错误信息”而关闭互联网只是一个借口。
几年前在大吉岭也发生过，他们只是想确保尽可能少公开。如果互联网仍然开放，更多的人会知道这件事，而不仅仅是reddit，他们不希望这样。
想象一下那里还发生了什么我们不知道的事情。
Every crime that you can imagine is happening there. The internet shutdown is there just to keep the state government away from dissolution.
你能想到的所有犯罪都在那里发生。关闭互联网只是为了让州政府免于解散。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Same thing happened in chernobyl
同样的事情也发生在切尔诺贝利。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
The whole thing started with the internet. It's a double edged sword. People were sharing unverified information claiming the other community is destroying their community.
这一切都始于互联网。它是一把双刃剑。人们分享未经证实的信息，声称其他族群正在摧毁他们的族群。
Rwanda style genocide in the making
卢旺达式的种族灭绝正在酝酿之中。
I think it's more like a Kashmir situation.
我认为更像是克什米尔的情况。
Haven't they shut down the internet there yet ? so that pics and videos along with independent reporting doesn't get out and "tarnish India's image"?
他们还没关闭那里的网络吗? 这样图片和视频以及独立报道就不会泄露出去，“玷污印度的形象”?
Internet is working in some SIMs that were activated outside Manipur. Some Wifi connections are working too.
在曼尼普尔以外激活的一些sim卡可以上网。一些Wifi连接也正常。
是的，这就是目的。他们不想让事情看起来很严重。但他们能压制多久?
As long as it takes I guess. Their base has already checked out and stopped caring. Any reports coming from there is either religiously painted as poor hindus getting killed by Christians or as propaganda against the Dear Leader and the nation.
我想要多久就多久。他们的基础已经被看清，不再关心了。来自那里的任何报道，要么被描绘为宗教问题，可怜的印度教徒被基督徒杀害，要么是反对敬爱的领袖和国家的宣传。
Ask kashmir. They can block it for ever, even if that causes immense pain and suffering.
问克什米尔。他们可以永远封锁它，即使这会造成巨大的痛苦和折磨。
Spare me the "both sides are equally bad" narrative. One side is gangraping women and parading them naked like trophies. One side is setting mothers and their young children on fire. Shops in imphal are pasting "don't burn this shop, we are meitei" to protect themselves from one side. One side's women activists are instigating violence in the name of being guardians of civil society.
别跟我说“双方都一样糟糕”的说法了。一边是轮奸妇女，像战利品一样裸体示众。一边是把母亲和她们年幼的孩子点着。英帕尔的商店为了保护自己，都贴着“不要烧这家店，我们是梅泰人”的标语。一方的女性活动人士以维护公民社会的名义煽动暴力。
You have have your own judgement. But the less bad side is torturing other minority communities, looting theirs vehicles, demanding money from neutral communities, mocking the innocent wife of a murdered husband to not cry as he's there. I can give you equal number of similar crimes committed by the others party for whichever party you choose.
你得有自己的判断。但不那么坏的一方在折磨其他少数民族群体，抢劫他们的车辆，向中立社区索要钱财，嘲笑丈夫被谋杀的无辜妻子，让她在丈夫（的尸体）面前不要哭泣。无论你选哪一方，我都可以给你列举另一方犯下的相同数量的类似罪行。
但再试一次，你可以有自己的判断。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
So you honestly believe that both sides are equally complicit?
所以你真的认为双方都是同谋?
As a third party viewer with not political stand whatsoever, YES.
作为一个没有任何政治立场的第三方观众，是的。
Must be the first conflict in the history of mankind where both sides are equally complicit.
这肯定是人类历史上第一次双方都是同谋的冲突。
You are free to take a side buddy. Nobody is stopping you.
你可以随便选边。没有人阻止你。
Good thing you're a third party viewer with no political stand. Otherwise that "less bad side" comment would have been confusing.
还好你是一个没有政治立场的第三方观众。否则，“不那么坏的一面”的评论会让人困惑。
There are countless conflicts in history where both sides commited atrocities against the other
历史上有无数的冲突，双方都对对方犯下了暴行。
梅泰人声称库基人挑起了冲突，而他们只是在报复和自卫。库基人的说法恰恰相反。
这是一种公说公有理婆说婆有理的情况，没有确凿的证据支持任何一方的说法。但有一件事已经得到证实，那就是梅泰人和库基人都沉溺于谋杀、强奸、折磨和破坏对方。
Equal culpability is a myth. Both sides can carry out atrocities and we can blame the continuing cycle of violence on both, but every conflict has one side more culpability than the other. People are free to debate which side is which but for the last time, the "both sides are bad" narrative is a cop out.
同样的罪责是一个神话。双方都可以实施暴行，我们也可以将持续不断的暴力循环归咎于双方，但每次冲突都有一方比另一方罪责更重。人们可以自由地辩论哪一方是哪一方，但最后一次，“双方都不好”的说法是一种逃避。
"More culpability" is essentially which side started the conflict or which side committed more atrocities. So by these criteria you could say one side is worse than the other but it doesn't mean that the other side is not bad. After all the other side too commits atrocities. So both sides can indeed be bad with one side being slightly worse
“罪责更重”本质上是指哪一方挑起冲突，或哪一方犯下更多暴行。所以根据这些标准，你可以说一方比另一方差，但这并不意味着另一方不差。毕竟另一方也犯下了暴行。所以双方都可能很糟糕，其中一方稍差。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
You can define "more culpability" by whatever metrics you want, all I'm saying is both sides cannot hold the same level of responsibility for this batch of violence. Being on the instigating side doesn't make that side worse in the same way it doesn't make the other side better.
你可以用任何你想要的标准来定义“罪责更重”，我想说的是，双方不能对这批暴力事件承担同样的责任。站在煽动的一方并不会让这一方变得更糟，同样也不会让另一方变得更好。
You trying to deny "both sides are bad" is the cop out here.
你在试图否认"双方都不好"是在逃避。
你无法理解复杂的情况，所以为了简单起见，你只想责怪一个群体。
有些冲突有一个非常明确的煽动者，比如俄罗斯入侵乌克兰，但这次的库基-梅泰冲突没有。
读读曼尼普尔的历史就知道了。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Is there a part of your brain that just refuses to recognise the word "equal" or "equally"? And what am I supposedly even copping out of?
你的大脑中是否有一部分拒绝识别“平等”或“相等”这个词? 那我该逃避什么呢?
You saying equal culpability is a myth is a cop out. Are you not able to comprehend that both groups in some conflicts could have equal culpability?.
你说同等罪责是无稽之谈，这是在逃避责任。难道你不能理解，在一些冲突中，双方都有同样的责任吗?
How do we measure atrocity? One side burned, mutilated, gouged out eye and killed a man, killed dozen while camping in a church, tortured an old man who went to meet his friend a village chief, r@ped women as they are being chased out from Moreh based on their personal accounts. And the other burned an ambulance carrying a mother and her son, paraded and gangr@pped two women.
我们如何衡量暴行? 一方焚烧，肢解，挖眼，杀死了一个人，在一个教堂扎营时杀死了十几个人，折磨了一个去见朋友（一个村长）的老人，强奸妇女，在她们被赶出莫雷时——据她们的个人描述。另一个则烧毁了一辆载有一位母亲及其儿子的救护车，将两名妇女游街并强奸。
在这一点上我们需要站队吗? 我们不应该争论哪个更糟糕，因为一切都是最糟糕的行为。犯下这些反人类罪行的人，不论其种族，都应被判处死刑。
I want peace. I want an end to the retributive violence that is killing people needlessly. I want harmony between all the different ethnic groups.
我想要和平。我希望结束那些不必要地杀害人们的报复性暴力。我想要所有不同民族之间的和谐。
但我不同意双方在这场冲突中同样是同谋的说法。在人类历史上，没有哪一场冲突是双方都负有同等责任的，曼尼普尔邦也不例外。如果你觉得梅泰人没有挑起暴力，那是你的观点。如果你觉得是梅泰人挑起了暴力，那也是你的观点。但是不要把所有的事情都归结为“双方都不好”。我甚至不会问你为什么把梅泰人的个人描述包括在内，而是只提到国家媒体证实的针对部落的暴力事件。我就假设这是无意的。不管怎样，该说的我都说了。你有同意或不同意的自由。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
We often speak of karma. Why is karma not catching up with this man under whose watch many die, that could all have been prevented?
我们常说因果报应。为什么业力没有落到这个人头上，在他的监管下，许多人死去，而这一切都是可以避免的?
Since the video went viral, it brought attention to the situation of those women and their community. It's essential to avoid giving in to individuals who self-centeredly use phrases like "omg it triggers me" or "traumatic for me" to discredit valid concerns.
这段视频在网上疯传后，引起了人们对这些女性及其族群处境的关注。有必要避免屈服于那些以自我为中心，使用“天哪，这件事让我激动”或“对我来说很痛苦”这样的短语来质疑合理担忧的人。
the uncomfortable truth is that it is in the nature of the majority to subjugate and brutalise the minority. it happens everywhere in the world. the minority gets no help from the administration and is then forced to take up arms after years of dehumanising treatment. when they do, they are labelled as terrorists. its easy to brainwash the brutalised to take up arms. which is when the War Inc steps in to provide arms and ammunitions to create conflict.
令人不安的事实是，多数人的本性是征服和残酷对待少数人。这在世界各地都有发生。少数人得不到政府的帮助，在经历了多年的非人待遇后，被迫拿起武器。当他们这样做时，他们被贴上恐怖分子的标签。很容易给被虐待的人洗脑，让他们拿起武器。这时战争公司介入，提供武器和弹药来制造冲突。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Salute your clarity of thought.
向你清晰的思维致敬。
我们生活在21世纪的法律和公元前1000年部落成员的心态下。我想知道我们和黑猩猩有什么不同。
That's true. But 30:50(kuki:meitei) isn't a big difference though. And they MOSTLY don't live together. Meitei live in imphal valley (10% of the total area) and Kuki share the hilly area with Nagas.
确实是这样。但30：50(库基人：梅泰人)的差距并不大。而且他们大多不住在一起。梅泰人居住在英帕尔山谷(占总面积的10%)，库基人与纳加人共享丘陵地区。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Thats the state ratio. What's the India ratio of Hindus vs kuki? Hindutva nationalism has only increased since 2014. Its an open secret that Hindu meteis i.e. The majoritarian India, want control of the resource rich hills which are still beyond them right now.
这是这个邦的比率。印度教徒和库基人的比例是多少? 印度教民族主义自2014年以来才有所增加。这是一个公开的秘密，印度教的梅泰人，即印度的多数派，想要控制资源丰富的山区，而这些山区现在仍在他们的控制之外。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
That is the stark truth.
这是残酷的事实。
Since you have people in manipur, please help get information out. Even if Internet is shut down, record phone conversations and post. Get specific reports with names of schools, affected people, etc.
既然你们在曼尼普尔邦有人，请帮忙把信息传出去。即使网络被关闭，也要录下通话内容并发布。获得具体的报告，包括学校的名字，受到影响的人等。
There is so much misinformation floating around and people choose their 'facts' from biased sources as it's convenient to believe what they want to believe. You can see in the comment section how these BJP/Congress asslickers are invalidating the information that I had extracted from the people there who are currently experiencing it and pushing their political agenda.
到处都是错误的信息，人们从有偏见的来源中选择“事实”，因为相信他们想要相信的东西很方便。你可以在评论区看到，这些人民党/国大党的混蛋，是如何使我从正在经历这种情况的人们那里提取的信息无效化，并推动他们的政治议程的。
Where did Congress come in from? How is it relevant here?
国大党从何而来? 和这件事有什么关系呢?
I didn't brought it up. I am just telling you that you can see how bjp-congress is using this post as a playground to push their agenda.
不是我提的。我只是告诉你，你可以看到人民党-国大党是如何利用这篇文章作为推动他们议程的游乐场的。
What agenda is Congress pushing here?
国大党在这件事里推动什么议程?
That kukis are victims, minorities are being crushed and kukis are not culprits in any way. They are equally attroctious. Everyone is supposed to pay taxes to Kuki militants, which means they are collecting money from general public to fuel the war. And this was a common practice even before this conflict.
库基人是受害者，少数民族受到压迫，库基人无论如何都不是罪魁祸首。他们同样的残暴。每个人都应该向库基武装分子纳税，这意味着他们从公众那里筹集资金来资助这场战争。甚至在这场冲突之前，这也是一种常见的做法。
资料来源：问问任何来自廓尔喀人/比哈里人/马尔瓦里人社区的人，他们住在库基人占主导地位的地区，比如Kangpokpi。
Do show evidence for the claim that Congress is pushing this agenda.
拿出证据证明国会正在推动这一议程。
Hang in there. This is super complicated conflict with multiple parties involved, not just the two ethnic tribes. last 15 days various transaction were traced from the Indian state, MSS, MSA, ISI, CIA and Baptist Orgs to various outfits on both sides. There is a far nasty situation that is being played inside all this chaos.
坚持下去……这是一场涉及多方的超级复杂的冲突，而不仅仅是两个民族部落。过去15天，各种交易可以追溯到从印度政府、国安部、国安局、三军情报局、中情局和浸信会组织，到双方的各种机构。在这一片混乱之中，正在上演一种非常恶劣的局面。
我对梅泰人和库基人的唯一建议是把宗教从这场冲突中去掉。一些团体正试图推动宗教议程，以达到他们自己恶心的目的，印度教/基督教界不相信其中任何一个，也不会上当。要特别注意这一点，严格声明这与宗教无关，你们可以挑选你们的领导人在外交圆桌会议上来说明这一点。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
还有，一句忠告，不要再依赖社交媒体上的网红来获取信息，不要被网上某个随便的人说的话所激怒。大多数人对现实情况一无所知。是的，那也包括我。我看到这里的小丑在发表狗屁评论，并试图根据他们从愚蠢的视频和烦人的youtube小丑那里得到的半生不熟的信息进一步煽动狗屎。请不要这样做。有真实的生命受到了影响。如果你对找到一个友好的解决方案没有任何建设性的贡献，请选择闭嘴，而不是试图火上浇油。
Anyone who thinks thinks is a religious thing is living in denial. There are Meitei Christian who aren't being touched by Meitei Hindus. They can drive their propaganda all they want, but it's 100 percent an ethnic clash.
任何认为是宗教问题的人都是生活在否认之中。有些梅泰基督徒不会被梅泰印度教徒碰触。他们可以随心所欲地进行宣传，但这绝对是种族冲突。
确实。我敢打赌他们中的许多人直到最近才知道曼尼普尔邦的存在。这是我的经验之谈。有人问我曼尼普尔在哪里，我就说在阿萨姆邦。
They think Seema Haider is more important! I do not even consider as a news tbh.
他们认为西玛·海德尔更重要! 我甚至不认为那是新闻。
Man I felt like vomiting by just hearing that news of that woman. If something like that happened to me I would honestly not be able to live with disgust.
听到那个女人的消息，我都想吐了。如果这样的事情发生在我身上，我真的无法忍受这种厌恶。
She should live, people should make her understand that she was not at fault. I can't imagine what was going through the mind of those men that did that to the women. I hope they recover soon. :)
她应该活下去，人们应该让她明白她没有错。我无法想象那些对女人做出这种事的男人是怎么想的。我希望他们早日康复。
Indian media is a joke. They are currently obsessed with PUBG lovers.
印度媒体就是个笑话。他们目前痴迷于报道PUBG粉丝。
So the riots which we generally see in north and west, have now turned into some sort of civil war as those who were being killed first have now started to retaliate.
因此，我们通常在北部和西部看到的骚乱，现在已经演变成某种内战，因为那些先被杀的人现在开始报复。
I am curious about which community started killing first. If you have any proof, please paste it here so that it's accessible to everyone.
我很好奇是哪个社区先开始杀人的。如果你有任何证明，请粘贴在这里，这样每个人都能看到。
But why? Trying to validate your biases?
但是为什么呢? 试图证实你的偏见?
I'm not biased towards any community. You have weak comprehension, don't you?
我对任何族群都没有偏见。你的理解力很差，是吗?
Weakness in comprehension can be improved upon, but how does one improve the bias in perspective?
理解能力的不足是可以改善的，但是如何改善观点上的偏见呢?
假装睡着的人叫不醒。只有自己能唤醒自己。
谢谢你来参加我的TED演讲。我没有什么要说的了。我要去提高我的理解力了，再见!
So what the solution
那么解决方案是什么呢?
Dissolve the state government and establish neutral governance and strict operations on the arsenal of both the parties.
解散邦政府，建立中立的治理，严格控制双方的军火库。
然而，这种痛苦可能会持续几十年。
Are you brain dead patient?
你是脑残吗？
曼尼普尔邦政府在做什么? 它在否认曼尼普尔发生的一切。
维护法律和秩序是邦政府和中央政府的职责。而在曼尼普尔，两个政府都惨重的失败了。
It's like the COVID second wave in major cities 2 years ago with authorities pretending everything is fine.
就像两年前主要城市的第二波新冠疫情一样，当局假装一切都很好。