为什么欧洲没有像美索不达米亚、埃及等古代文明一样的文明?
Why did Europe have no ancient civilizations like Mesopotamia, Egypt, etc.?译文简介
为什么欧洲没有像美索不达米亚、埃及等古代文明一样的文明?
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When you say “like Mesopotamia, Egypt, etc.”, I assume you mean a pristine civilization, one which arose spontaneously and without outside influence. It looks like there are a few conditions preconditioning the rise of civilization. Europe didn’t have those conditions at the time when civilizations were appearing nearby, and the expansion and influence of those civilizations made the question moot shortly thereafter.
当你说“像美索不达米亚、埃及等”时,我想你指的是一个原始的文明,一个自发产生的、没有外部影响的文明。看起来有几个条件可以为文明的崛起做准备。当文明在附近出现时,欧洲并不具备这些条件,而这些文明的扩张和影响使这个问题在不久之后变得毫无意义。
文明需要一个庞大的生存基础。不同文明必须支持大量位于中心的非农民,因此需要有大量的农业盈余。当埃及和美索不达米亚出现第一批文明时,欧洲正处于从狩猎和采集向农业转变的过程中,因此欧洲大多数地方甚至还没有做好支持城市人口的准备。
早期文明中的另一个重要主题似乎是资源,这些资源对人们来说很难放弃。在大多数情况下(美索不达米亚、埃及、印度河流域、秘鲁;早期的黄河文明在这一点上有些不确定),文明似乎在穿越沙漠的河谷中兴起。这些地方是宜居的地方,交通便利,土地肥沃,但周围都是充满敌意的荒地。这导致人口密集,因为人们不能轻易地分散以避免冲突和做自己想做的事情。人们必须想出某种方法来调解冲突,否则彼此相处时。他们最终发明了政府和文明。类似的机制也可能参与了资本投资方面(如果你花了数年时间修建灌溉系统或葡萄园,你会接受比放弃更复杂的社会),但重要的是,文明往往出现在人们宁愿留在日益增长的社会复杂性和人口密度的情况下而不是独立闯荡的环境中。而当时的欧洲没有像沙漠那样的地方让人们待在肥沃的河谷中,并且尚未开发出资本密集型资源,例如葡萄园和灌溉网络,因此并未激励人们走向文明。
你可能已经注意到了,我一直在说“当时”或“当文明在埃及和美索不达米亚兴起时”。这是潜在的原始欧洲文明的另一个重要问题。如果让它自行发展,欧洲能否建立自己完全本土的文明?也许可以。欧洲第一个城市化社会的出现并不仅仅是因为欧洲拥有最先进的技术,而且还因为它与不只一个文明直接接触。通过地中海与埃及的联系以及毗邻西南亚的美索不达米亚文化圈的联系,启动了欧洲文明,该文明将两者的元素与其本土文化相结合。文明在其内部开始之前就已经从外部进入。
Early European civilizations were not exactly like Mesopotamia or Egypt, but the Vinca culture of Eastern and Central Europe (5th and 6th millennium BC) appears to have had a writing system, similar to that of the Dispilio tablet, (5202 BC, Macedonia) and the Vinca culture developed into the Cucuteni culture, with writing similar to Byblos scxt, and agriculture, animal care, ceramics, stylized statues like those of the ancient Cyclades islands, woven textiles. In Varna, Bulgaria, a graveyard was found, dating from 4600–4100 BC, full of gold obxts amassed by people who had established a weapons trade network that stretched all the way to Spain. These people at Varna were also cattle breeders and some of the gold artifacts in the graves were buttons shaped like cattle. Another remark about the Cucuteni culture, some really large towns were built in their time, towns which held thousands of people. So if civilizations were just beginning in Eastern and Southern Europe during the Neolithic, what is known about Mesopotamia and Egypt during the Neolithic? Their civilizations were also just beginning then.
早期的欧洲文明并不完全像美索不达米亚或埃及,但东欧和中欧的文卡文化(公元前5和6千年)似乎有一个书写系统,类似于Dispilio碑(公元前5202年,马其顿),文卡文化发展为库库特尼文化,有类似于比布鲁斯文字的书写,以及农业、动物护理、陶瓷、像古代基克拉迪群岛的风格化雕像、编织的纺织品。在保加利亚的瓦尔纳,发现了一个墓地,时间为公元前4600-4100年,里面堆满了黄金制品,这些人建立了一个武器贸易网络,一直延伸到西班牙。瓦尔纳的这些人也是养牛的人,墓穴中的一些金器是牛的形状的纽扣。关于库库特尼文化的另一个说法是,在他们的时代,一些真正的大城镇被建造出来,这些城镇可以容纳成千上万的人。因此,如果新石器时代东欧和南欧的文明刚刚开始,那么新石器时代美索不达米亚和埃及的情况又如何呢?他们的文明在那时也是刚刚开始。
我认为我们不应该忽略赫梯人,他们的文明与埃及和美索不达米亚同时代,但他们居住在现在的土耳其东部,那里是欧洲的一部分。欧洲最古老的建筑是在土耳其的戈比克利特佩,用浮雕艺术雕刻了狮子、蝎子、公牛、鸭子和野猪,有1.15万年历史。戈比克利特佩的人们也可以读写。那里发现了类似于原始迦南文字的印章。
南欧古代文明包括米诺斯人,他们有国王、宫殿、文字、贸易、纪念碑、农业等等。前罗马时代的意大利也存在类似的文化,不仅被意大利部落占领,南部的腓尼基人、西北部的伊特鲁里亚人和东北部的伊塔洛凯尔特人也占领了意大利。
Maybe the correct answer is the Europe have had this kind of civilizations but the research work related isn’t yet completed.Recently (in 2017) the ruin of an very old town was discovered in Romania (Turdas area).Seems that is the oldest town in the SE Europe (dated 4200 BC with almost 2000 y before Egyptian pyramids). The surface of the town was estimated at 100 ha (means that is larger then Troy was) . The problem is that this huge area request too much money to made a full archaeologically work…
也许正确的答案是欧洲曾经有这种文明,但相关的研究工作尚未完成。最近(2017年)在罗马尼亚的图尔达斯地区发现了一座非常古老的城镇遗址。似乎这是东南欧的最古老城镇(公元前4200年,比埃及金字塔早了将近2000年)。该城镇的面积估计为100公顷(比特洛伊还大)。问题是,这个巨大的区域需要花费太多钱来进行全面的考古工作......
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从另一个角度来看,“塔尔塔里亚” 石板的发现地(这些石板被认为是第一种书写形式)位于同一地区,而且日期似乎与同一时期相符。
然而,如果没有强有力的研究工作,很难对欧洲有一个正确的了解。,从文明的角度来看,超过5或6个千年前。基本上,任何新发现都必须受到重视、审查和重新评估。基于这种重新评估,与我们今天对旧欧洲的了解相比,结论可能会大不相同。
Geography basically.. in ancient times most of Europe was covered in thick Forrest which was great for sparsely populated villages and loose tribal confederations like the celts and goths but not so good for classical civilizations with large armies to feed & transport, international trade and centralized governments. It took a very long time for all the forest to be cut down so that they could make way for roads and large scale agriculture.
The Teutoburg Forest fiasco is a good example of why large civilization had a hard time expanding into northern Europe.
The Mediterranean was a such a hotbed of civilization because the sea itself and the connected rivers acted like a huge highway system and the climate is also milder than the rest of Europe.
基本上是地理因素...在古代,欧洲大部分地区都被茂密的森林覆盖着,这对于人口稀少的村庄和类似凯尔特人和哥特人的部落联盟来说非常好,但对于需要养活和运输大军队、进行国际贸易和建立中央集权政府的经典文明来说并不利。要将所有森林都砍伐完,并为道路和大规模农业腾出空间,需要很长时间。德国桑托佩迪斯战役的惨败就是说明大型文明难以扩展到北欧的一个例子。地中海成为了文明的温床,因为海洋本身和相连接的河流就像一条巨大的高速公路系统,而且气候比欧洲其他地区温和。
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Greece is in Europe, and much of its culture forms a common reference for all the European societies. It is an ancient civilization, albeit not as old as the fertile crescent societies like Mesopotamia and Egypt.
希腊位于欧洲,其文化大部分构成了所有欧洲社会的共同参考。这是一个古老的文明,虽然不像美索不达米亚和埃及等肥沃新月地区的社会那样古老。
This question is impossible to answer before you define what you mean by “civilisation”. As other answers show, if you define “civilisation” in one way, you get the answer “but Europe did!”. Defined another way, Europe didn’t.
Generally, ancient civilisations in the way most people use that term, arose where agriculture provided enough of a surplus to use that surplus to support enough elites and non food producing specialists. That’s why many arose in very fertile river valleys. Europe was basically too cold to generate enough surplus at that time. As technology evolved, it became possible to sustain advanced cultures away from lands of more or less eternal summer. It’s the same in Asia and the Americas. A high agricultural yield was a necessity.
在定义“文明”之前,这个问题是无法回答的。正如其他答案所示,如果您以某种方式定义“文明”,您会得到“但欧洲确实有!”的答案。根据另一种定义,欧洲没有。 一般来说,大多数人所称的古代文明都发源于农业提供了足够的盈余,以支持足够数量的精英和非粮食生产专家。这就是为什么许多文明在非常肥沃的河谷地区出现的原因。当时,欧洲基本上过于寒冷,无法产生足够的剩余。随着技术的进步,可以在远离永久性夏季土地的地方维持先进文化。这在亚洲和美洲也是一样的。高农业产量是必要的。
Both the ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians are thought to have settled the Nile and Tigris-Euphrates because of climate change. North Africa and the Middle East were both wetter prior to about 12,000 years ago.
古埃及人和美索不达米亚人都被认为是因为气候变化而在尼罗河和底格里斯幼发拉底河定居的。在大约12000年前之前,北非和中东都比较潮湿。
随着狩猎场的干涸,人们迁移到更潮湿的河谷,最终转向务农。在那些干旱的气候下,修建和修复灌溉沟渠是必要的,这需要社会组织。(例如,西欧的巨石阵文化,建造巨石阵的社区比河谷文明更早建造这些建筑;不同的是,虽然欧洲的努力也需要组织,但人们并不依赖这些建筑来获取食物。)
一件事建立在另一件事之上;河谷地区的人口有所增长,但在地理上无法轻易扩张。更大的人口需要更大的组织,也为有权力和魅力的人提供了开始控制其他人的机会。然后他们开始向民众征税,记录这些税收,建造仓库等等…。
与此同时,欧洲也受到气候变化的影响,但人们有更多的灵活性。它们可以迁移到温暖的地区,可以在许多湖泊和广阔的海岸线捕鱼;它们仍然可以狩猎;他们可以在许多地区耕种。他们没有被沙漠包围,也不依赖人工灌溉。
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Europe had the amazing Minoans on the Greek island of Crete. Bronze Age Minoans traded and interacted with Egyptians as early as 3000 BC, who referred to them as the Keftieu. The Minoan civilization was forgotten for a long time until excavations began in the late 1800s. They were quite advanced with indoor toilets, hot and cold running water and a powerful navy controlling that part of the Aegean. Linear B, their written language has yet to be deciphered.
Matthew Robert Keen
ignoring the more famous Greeks and Minoans, Bulgaria had a thriving farming and city based culture between 5000 and 2000 bce and that was before even the Thracians/Dacians arrived on the scene and kicked the Romans faces in about 30 ce. The ancient Bulgarians even had a valley of the kings and circular pyramids (which were covered in soil cos that's so Europe)
欧洲在希腊克里特岛上有令人惊叹的米诺斯人。早在公元前3000年,青铜时代的米诺斯人就与埃及人进行了贸易和交流,埃及人将他们称为凯夫提乌人。米诺斯文明被遗忘了很久,直到19世纪末才开始发掘。他们相当先进,有室内厕所、冷热自来水和一支强大的海军,控制着爱琴海的那一部分。他们的书面语言Linear B迄今仍未被解密。
It did, but rather later. Like most of the rest of the world.
There was also no River Valley to allow a massive civilisation. The Danube came closest and there were cultures there.
Greece copied the culture of Crete, which in turn was inspired by Egypt and West Asia.
它确实如此,但比较晚。就像世界上大多数其他地方一样。
那里也没有河谷,无法形成大规模的文明。多瑙河是最接近的,那里有文化。
希腊复制了克里特岛的文化,而克里特岛又受到了埃及和西亚的启发。
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Metal working, the wheel, horse riding etc all started in Europe. The problem is building materials in Europe were predominantly wood so we dont have clay buildings or stone buildings. Most cities are built on older cities. For example London is at least 2600 years old. We have things like Stone henge but our buildings from that time would all be wood. For example Dogger Land is now covered in water but predates the last ice age. The oldest Celtic writing we have evidence of is in Portugal from 800bc on some gravestones. Obviously there is also all the pre-celtic stuff.
Thing is also we are very warlike so we tend to totally destroy an enemy when we conquer and so for example we dont know much about pre roman Spain or pre roman France apart from some artifacts and the remains of towns that the Romans totally flattened and destroyed or built on top of. And of course we would need to totally dig up Paris for example to see what Celtic Paris was like. Land is at a premium unlike the countries you mention so we build on top of old stuff. Tin mining in Cornwall for example is thousands of years old
I think you get the idea
金属加工、车轮、骑马等都始于欧洲。问题是欧洲的建筑材料主要是木材,所以我们没有粘土建筑或石头建筑。大多数城市都建在老城市的基础上。例如,伦敦至少有2600年的历史。我们有巨石阵之类的东西,但从那时起,我们的建筑都是木制的。例如,多格地现在被水覆盖,但早于上一次冰河时代。我们有证据表明,最古老的凯尔特文字是公元前800年在葡萄牙的一些墓碑上。显然,这里也有所有凯尔特人之前的东西。
问题还在于,我们非常好战,所以当我们征服敌人时,我们往往会完全摧毁敌人。例如,除了一些文物和被罗马人完全夷为平地摧毁或建造的城镇遗迹外,我们对前罗马时期的西班牙或前罗马时代的法国了解不多。当然,我们需要彻底挖掘巴黎,例如,看看凯尔特人的巴黎是什么样子。与你提到的国家不同,土地价格很高,所以我们在旧东西的基础上建造。例如,康沃尔郡的锡矿开采已有数千年的历史
我想你明白了
The oldest extant stone built dwellings in Scotland predate the pyramids of ancient Egypt by 1000 years!
That said, as others have written, geography was against the development of large civilisations in much of Central and northern Europe. It lacks the fertile river valleys surrounded by deserts that deterred enemies and it was recovering and being repopulated after the last ice age
苏格兰现存最古老的石头建造的住宅比古埃及金字塔早1000年!
也就是说,正如其他人所写的那样,地理不利于中欧和北欧大部分地区大型文明的发展。它缺乏被沙漠包围的肥沃河谷,这些沙漠使敌人望而却步,而且在上一次冰河时期后,它正在恢复并重新繁衍
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There is a great deal of ambiguity about the terms “civilization” and “culture”. There are a number of late Neolithic cultures, like Vinca and Çatalhöyük in Anatolia, that exhibit many interesting traits. However, it takes many criteria to make a civilization, rather than an advanced culture—a combination of the use of writing, cities, a class-based society, agriculture, animal husbandry, public buildings, metallurgy, and monumental architecture. There is general agreement among scholars that civilization, so defined, arose first independently in six places—Egypt, Mesopotamia, India, China, Mesoamerica, and the Andes.
Why those six places? The one common factor seems to be river systems. However, this is a case where the question “why?” is inappropriate. It simply happened.
This chart shows a timeline for phases of those six civilizations:
关于 "文明 "和 "文化 "这两个词有很大的模糊性。有一些新石器时代后期的文化,如安纳托利亚的文卡和恰塔霍尤克,表现出许多有趣的特征。然而,要成为一种文明,而不是一种先进的文化,需要很多标准--结合使用文字、城市、阶级社会、农业、畜牧业、公共建筑、冶金和纪念性建筑。学者们普遍认为,如此定义的文明首先独立出现在六个地方--埃及、美索不达米亚、印度、中国、中美洲和安第斯山脉。
为什么是这六个地方?一个共同的因素似乎是河流系统。然而,这是一个 "为什么?"的问题不合适的情况。它只是发生了。
这个图表显示了这六个文明的阶段性时间表:
Alfred of Wessex
This is false. Northern and Western Europe didn’t have any advanced civilizations comparable to Mesopotamia and Egypt, since most of it was covered by huge forest and had mostly bronze tools but there were thriving settlements Biskupin in Poland and Nebra in Germany and it was home to sophisticated cultures like Nordic Bronze Age culture and Hallstatt Culture. In Southern Europe there were many ancient civilizations such as the Minoan Civilization in Crete and Mycenae.
这是不正确的。北欧和西欧没有任何可与美索不达米亚和埃及相媲美的先进文明,因为它的大部分地区被巨大的森林所覆盖,而且主要是青铜工具,但波兰的比斯库平和德国的内布拉有繁荣的定居点,它是北欧青铜时代文化和哈尔斯塔特文化等复杂文化的发源地。在南欧,有许多古代文明,如克里特岛的米诺斯文明和迈锡尼文明。
That is not true. The Sumerian civilisation started around 3500BC and Egypt was unified around 3000BC, which is also when the Minoan civilisation started around Crete in Europe. The problem is that it collapsed (ike a lost Atlantis), due to the volcanic eruption of Santorini around 1600BC, with effects which also generated a general Bronze Age Collapse in Egypt, Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley. Indo European warriors moved into the areas and formed Indo European languages (except for in Egypt), and focus shifted from Indus to Ganges in the East, from South to North in Mespotamia, from Memphis to Luxor in Egypt and from Crete to Mykonos in Europe.
这不是真的。苏美尔文明始于公元前3500年左右,埃及于公元前3000年左右统一,这也是米诺斯文明始于欧洲克里特岛附近的时候。问题是,由于公元前1600年左右圣托里尼火山爆发,它坍塌了(就像失去的亚特兰蒂斯一样),其影响也在埃及、美索不达米亚和印度河流域造成了青铜时代的普遍坍塌。印欧战士进入这些地区,形成了印欧语言(埃及除外),重点从印度河转移到东部的恒河,从南部转移到北部的梅斯波塔米亚,从孟菲斯转移到埃及的卢克索,从克里特岛转移到欧洲的米科诺斯。
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Europe did, it's just that modern historians and archeologists won't accept anything that doesn't ‘fit the narrative'. Fortunately, as time rolls on, more and more anomalies are being discovered and uncovered, that don't fit but also can't be ignored. In some instances, they fit with the mythologies and folklore of the regions they are found in.
Our history is much, much older than we are led to believe and far more richer and complex. Once vested interests and self-serving ignorance has been pushed aside, we will finally be able to build a clearer picture of what and who came before us.
Until then, we'll have to settle for the status quo and all the inconsistencies it carries…
欧洲做到了,只是现代历史学家和考古学家不会接受任何不“符合叙事”的东西。幸运的是,随着时间的推移,越来越多的异常现象被发现,这些异常现象不适合,但也不容忽视。在某些情况下,它们与它们所在地区的神话和民间传说相吻合。
我们的历史比我们所相信的要古老得多,也更加丰富和复杂。一旦既得利益和自私的无知被抛在一边,我们最终将能够更清楚地了解我们之前发生了什么和谁。
在那之前,我们将不得不接受现状及其带来的所有不一致…
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The Cycladic Culture was an Ancient Greek civilization which began in 3300BCE, along with Ancient Egypt, and China. Greece is European. The word Europe is of Greek origin from Europa, a mythological goddess. Now, 3300BCE is exactly 5322 years ago (as of my answer, hello people from the future reading this). That predates the Indus Valley Civilization which began in 3000BCE, by 300 years. The Cycladic Culture _is_ then one of the oldest civilizations in the history of the world and happens to be European. So there.
基克拉迪文化是一种古希腊文明,始于公元前3300年,与古埃及和中国一起出现。希腊是欧洲人。“欧洲”一词来源于希腊神话中的女神欧罗巴。现在,公元前3300年正好是5322年前(截至我的回答,来自未来的读者您好)。这比始于公元前3000年的印度河流域文明早了300年。基克拉迪文化当时是世界历史上最古老的文明之一,恰好是欧洲人。就这样。
Civilization comes from the Greek word Civi or “city” I am sure there is evidence of “cities” around the time of the bronze age that can be found in Europe. I doubt, however, they had the same influence as say an Egypt at the time so that is why we don't study them or talk about them much.
I am not an expert just speculation.
文明来自希腊语Civi或“城市”。我相信在欧洲可以找到青铜时代前后“城市”的证据。然而,我怀疑他们当时的影响力是否与埃及一样,所以这就是为什么我们不太研究他们或谈论他们的原因。
我不是专家,只是猜测。
It’s far from being a scientific answer, but a very interesting one. And I think it is also far from being accepted by academics too. Anyhow, have you ever heard the pyramids of Visoko, Bosnia?
Allegedly there are miles-long tunnels below them, and artifacts with runic glyphs similar to Transylvanian-Hungarian glyphs, that are impossibly old. I don’t want to write numbers, I don’t know if it is true or not, but I find this subject very exciting and I’m curious what will happen in this pyramid question. I’m Hungarian, I’m pretty close to Bosnia, sooner or later I will go and see it for myself. If it’s true, that will be a nice answer of the European ancient culture question.
这远不是一个科学的答案,而是一个非常有趣的答案。我认为这也远未被学术界所接受。无论如何,你听说过波斯尼亚维索科的金字塔吗?
据称,它们下面有几英里长的隧道,以及带有类似特兰西瓦尼亚匈牙利铭文的符文铭文的文物,这些文物的年代之久远令人难以置信。我不想写数字,我不知道这是真是假,但我觉得这个主题非常令人兴奋,我很好奇这个金字塔问题会发生什么。我是匈牙利人,离波斯尼亚很近,我迟早会亲自去看看。如果这是真的,那将是欧洲古代文化问题的一个很好的答案。