网友讨论：1796年的清朝 VS 19世纪的清朝
Oh how the mighty have fallen
译文简介
清朝：不，兄弟，我们不在乎你有什么花哨的东西
正文翻译
Oh how the mighty have fallen
哦，强者是怎么倒下的
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Qing dynasty be like: Nah bro, we don’t care that you have fancy things like “ironclad steamships” or “rifled cannons” those are useless barbarian technologies.
清朝：不，兄弟，我们不在乎你有什么花哨的东西，什么“铁甲轮船”或“线膛炮”，这些都是无用的野蛮人的技术。
Same reason why I always play as Korea in Civ. The science bonus means that I always get industrial weapons before any of the other players.
这与我总是在文明中扮演朝鲜的原因相同。科学奖励意味着我总是比其他玩家先得到工业武器。
Senātus Populusque Rōmānus
Bruh Babylon getting nukes in Medievel Era go brrrrr
噗，巴比伦在中世纪就能获得核武器
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Meh Babylon only gets +50% on Great scientists, Sweden gets + 10% on every great personality for each friendly city state!!!!
呵，巴比伦仅在大科学家点数上有+50%奖励，而瑞典每和一个城邦交好，所有伟人点数都能获得+10%！！！！
And then I told them I'm Jesus's brother
Yeah, but Civ6 Babylon just pulls whole technologies out of its ass entire eras ahead of schedule.
是的，但文明6里巴比伦每个时代都能在技术上远远领先于各文明
My friends have banned me from playing Babylon. Something about having bombers when they've barely got gunpowder or something...
我的朋友们禁止我玩巴比伦。毕竟在他们还没有火药或其他东西的情况下拥有轰炸机这种事情......
Civ 6 Babylon is the only civ ban I’m down with. My group just tried to ban Yongle… Yongle!
联机玩文明 6 不准选巴比伦是我是赞成的。我们这帮经常一起玩的也开始想禁止选永乐了……永乐！
Sun Yat-Sen do it again
Korea in real life: still a medi society during the 1800s
现实生活中的朝鲜：1800年代仍是中世纪社会
Descendant of Genghis Khan
Korea in the 19th century would be politically/economically similar to Europe in the late 1600s/early 1700s.
19 世纪的朝鲜在政治/经济上与 1600 年代末/1700 年代初的欧洲相似。
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Japan gets a bonus to swordsman which absolutely fuck everything until the medi age
日本的剑士在中世纪之前绝对是碾压一切的存在
That is something I find a bit bizarre, because we were known for archery and beuacracy. Also shitty court politics.
我觉得文明分给我们（朝鲜）的特性有点奇怪，因为我们以射箭和官僚主义而闻名。还有糟糕的宫廷政治。
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Meanwhile Japan is like: Write that down, write that down!
“清朝：不，兄弟，我们不在乎你有什么花哨的东西”
与此同时的日本：记下来，记下来！
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Nobody here except my fellow trees
after the opinum warsCourt scholars: umm your majesty, I think it best we atleast tried to modernized the army. I mean those barbarians did kick our ass with those guns.
Chinese emperor: non sense, we just need more Qi and men to defeat those barbarians.
鸦片战争后
大臣们：额，陛下，我认为我们最好至少尝试使军队现代化。我的意思是那些野蛮人确实用那些枪把我们打得屁滚尿流。
中国皇帝：扯淡，我们只需要更多的“气”和人来打败那些野蛮人。
Chinese and Russian war philosophy: "When in doubt, throw more bodies at the problem. Literally, if you have to."
中国和俄罗斯的战争哲学：“如果出现问题，就投入更多的人力解决问题。如果必须的话。”
Nobody here except my fellow trees
The story of fighting Russia and China: Fuck, that a lot of Russians and Chinese.
和俄罗斯和中国打仗的故事：操，俄罗斯人和中国人也太多了。
I mean that is exactly what they did with the self strengthening movement. But turns out, there’s more to having a strong army than having good weapons; the Qing army and Japan were roughly at tech parity by the first Sino-Japanese war, yet they got destroyed despite outnumbering Japan
“我们最好至少尝试使军队现代化。”
这正是他们在自强运动中所做的。但事实证明，拥有一支强大的军队比拥有好的武器更重要；第一次中日战争时，清军和日本的技术大致相当，但尽管数量超过日本，还是被对方摧毁了
Industrialisation goes brrr
（清朝的衰落是因为）工业化的发展
China was well on it's way to start the decline by 1796
中国在 1796 年开始衰落
China's decline had begun since 1370s when the Ming Emperor Zhu Yuanzhang traded progress for stability
Compared to Europe, China was indeed extraordinarily stable from 1370 to 1800, with only one major dynastic change in between, which curiously coincided with the 30 Years War, the British Civil War, and the Time of Troubles in Russia. I believe the Ottoman-Safavid War also happened during the same time
But when your entire system became obsolete, the ensuing instability became one for the ages
中国的衰落始于 1370 年代，当时明朝皇帝朱元璋以进步换取稳定
与欧洲相比，中国从 1370 年到 1800 年确实异常稳定，其间只有一次重大的王朝更迭，正当此时欧洲恰逢 30 年战争、英国内战和俄罗斯的动荡时期。我相信奥斯曼-萨法维战争也发生在同一时期
但是当你的整个体制变得过时时，随之而来的不稳定性就变成了长期的难题。
I wouldn't say the decline of the ming is the same decline from which china has risen from these past few decades, in my opinion this particular decline started in the late years of Qianlong. China was very prosperous and stable from late 1600s to late 1700s. I also dont think that the chinese system became obsolete until the late 1700s- early 1800s
我不会说明朝的衰落与中国在过去几十年中崛起之前的衰落是一回事，在我看来，这种特殊的衰落始于乾隆晚年。从 1600 年代后期到 1700 年代后期，中国非常繁荣稳定。我也不认为中国的体制在 1700 年代末到 1800 年代初之前就已经过时了
No, but the path towards obsolesce was started long before that. It all worked until it didn’t; and the moment they chose to look inward rather than outward was the moment they set course for that outcome.
Sure they could’ve changed their entire outlook, but as long as you’re stable and prosperous, why would you, and the moment you’re no longer prosperous, the rest of the world had overtaken you.
不，但是走上过时的道路早在那之前就开始了。一切都稳定有效，直到完全无效为止；他们选择向内看而不是向外看的那一刻，就是他们为实现这一结果而设定航向的那一刻。
他们当然可以改变他们对世界的整个看法，但只要你稳定和繁荣，你就会一直这样下去，当你不再繁荣的时候，世界其他地方已经超越了你。
Same as with the Tokugawa. Closing up and glassing all progress works until the rest of the world innovates enough to ascend to the next trophic level of power.
与德川幕府相同。在世界其他地方创新积蓄到足以提升到下一个级别的权力之前，闭关锁国和抵制所有进步的做法是有效的。
The shoguns knows about foreign technologies , they trading with the Dutch, knowing and admiring their superior technology (Rangaku),
But the Chinese emperors, they are too arrogant, sees foreign technologies as “strange and useless“
“Our Celestial Empire possesses all things in prolific abundance and lacks no product within its borders. There is therefore no need to import the manufactures of outside barbarians in exchange for our own produce.”
Emperor Qianlong, 1792
幕府将军了解外国技术，他们与荷兰人进行贸易，了解并钦佩他们的卓越技术（诞生了“兰学”），
但中国皇帝太狂妄了，认为外国技术是“奇技淫巧”
“我天朝上国地大物博，物产丰富，不缺任何东西。因此，没有必要进口外面野蛮人的产品来换我们自己的产品。”
-乾隆皇帝，1792
Senātus Populusque Rōmānus
I read that There are historians that challenge that point and say they were after all competent politicians, their arrogance came from a totally different world view, which honestly I find pretty funny
我读到有历史学家有历史学家质疑这一点，说他们其实都是有能力的政治家，他们的傲慢来自完全不同的世界观，说实话我觉得这很有趣
That maybe, they are competent in their own world, unfortunately for them the world is changing rapidly
也许吧，他们在自己的世界里是有能力的，不幸的是，世界正在迅速变化
I mean they didn't actually close up everything. They still allowed trade with anyone but Portugal (Shimabara Rebellion 1637 and trying to proselytise). England didn't trade because they weren't interested, Spain dunno had other obxtives and the USA wasn't United back then. In the meantime the Dutch defended their monopoly (had offical relations because as protestants hated the Portuguese) with force, if necessary against other nations.
They were also often misinformed about foreign events, even more if it benefited the Dutch.
Japan had prospered a lot in agriculture and could feed a large population (24 million) for its limited size (as big as Germany, but 80% mountains) and had high literacy rates (estimated 40% of men, 10% of women) due to terakoya, temple schools, where samurai (their families made up 6-7% of the population) lower nobles and priests teached the basics and some social edictit to indoctrinate the commoners and stabilise their rule.
It obviously wasn't as far technologically as industrial nations but when they had the chance they could industrialise easier than a huge state like China.
I'll add my sources below, if you want to read them, it'll take a while though since I'm currently on a train.
“德川幕府”
他们实际上并没有关闭一切。他们仍然允许与除葡萄牙以外的任何人进行贸易（1637年的岛原叛乱和试图改变宗教信仰）。英国没有和日本贸易，因为他们不感兴趣，西班牙我不清楚，可能他们有其他的目标，而美国那时还不是合众国。同时，荷兰人用武力捍卫他们的垄断地位（和日本有官方正式的关系，因为新教徒憎恨葡萄牙人），必要时会对其他国家进行打击。
他们（荷兰人）还经常传播外国事件错误的信息，如果对荷兰人有利的话则更是如此。
日本在农业方面取得了很大的发展，以其有限的国土面积（和德国一样大，但80%是山地），养活了大量的人口（2400万），并且由于寺院学校的存在，识字率很高（估计40%的男性，10%的女性识字），武士（他们的家庭占人口的6-7%）下层贵族和牧师教授基础知识和一些社会法令，以灌输平民并稳定他们的统治。
显然，它在技术上不如工业国家，但当他们有机会时，他们可以比中国这样的大国更容易实现工业化。
如果你想看的话，我会在下面附上我查阅的相关资料，不过需要花点时间，因为我现在正在火车上。
Qianlong definitely made things a lot worse, and the competence of his descendants continued to decline
乾隆肯定让事情变得更糟了，他的子孙能力不断下降
How can you compare a nation to an entire continent...
“与欧洲相比”
你怎么能将一个国家与整个大陆相提并论...
And then I told them I'm Jesus's brother
True, China is comparable to two continents
这没错，中国堪比整个大洲
Basically all of Europe was locked in total war from 1789-1815. That’s honestly what made them so strong though, constantly needing to keep ahead of their rivals spurred industrialization and weapons development; that there’s less than 100 years from the Battle of Trafalgar with wind-powered wooden warships to dreadnought battleships with steel armor and steam turbine engines is honestly astonishing.
从 1789 年到 1815 年，整个欧洲基本上陷入了全面战争。老实说，这就是让他们如此强大的原因，不断需要保持领先于他们的竞争对手，刺激了工业化和武器的发展；不到 100 年的时间，从使用风力木制战舰的特拉法加海战到使用钢制装甲和蒸汽涡轮发动机的无畏战列舰，真是令人震惊。
Europe was in some form of squabbling since the fall of the Roman Empire. With each century have some major conflict in it.
自罗马帝国没落以来，欧洲一直处于某种形式的争吵之中。每个世纪都有一些重大冲突。
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I would say it even went back even further, all the way to the black death. Europe had been locked in a constant state of warfare since the late medi period. Reconquista, the Italian wars, 100 years war, 30 years war, English civil war etc all of it professionalized the militaries. Having a war with France was practically just an English tradition by the 18th century. The HRE revolting against the emperor was as German as sauerkraut. Russia had at least 10 wars with the Ottomans up till the 18th century. Warfare practically never stopped, was almost constantly evolving from carracks to ships of the line, industrialization was the next logical step in its evolution.
The unprecedented evolution of warfare was insane compared to the centuries of various iterations of shield walls, phalanx, and galleys.
我想说它甚至可以追溯到更远的地方，一直追溯到黑死病。自中世纪晚期以来，欧洲一直处于战争状态。收复失地运动、意大利战争、100 年战争、30 年战争、英国内战等都使军队专业化。到 18 世纪，与法国开战实际上已经成为英国的传统。神圣罗马帝国内部反抗皇帝是德国人的家常便饭。直到 18 世纪，俄罗斯与奥斯曼人至少发生了 10 次战争。战争几乎从未停止过，一路从马车演变为战列舰，工业化是其演变的下一个合乎逻辑的进展。
与几个世纪以前的盾墙、方阵和大帆船的各种迭代相比，战争的空前演变简直是疯狂的。
Senātus Populusque Rōmānus
What answering in Latin to a Brit does to you
用拉丁语回答英国人，你说呢
Wait did this actually happen? That's funny
等等，这真的发生了吗？那很好笑
And then I told them I'm Jesus's brother
Yeah, they thought they still spoke latin and talked in latin to some diplomats or merchants.
是的，他们认为欧洲仍然说拉丁语并且用拉丁语与一些外交官或商人交谈。
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Is there a source on this? On which occasion did this happen? If it did I'd assume it would be because the court in Beijing had more experience with westerners in the form of Catholic missionaries
有这方面的消息来源吗？这是在什么场合发生的？如果是这样，我想这是因为北京的朝廷对天主教传教士形式的西方人有更多的经验。
I first saw this in a Kraut video and I doubted it. I read about the Macartney Embassy and it's because they brought along Catholic Missionaries to translate, who were familiar with Latin, not English. I keep seeing this posted over & over again so someone can feel free to prove me wrong.
我第一次是在Kraut的视频中看到的这一点，我对此表示怀疑。我又读了关于马戛尔尼使团的文献，说这是因为他们带来了天主教传教士来翻译，他们熟悉拉丁语，而不是英语。我会一直关注这个帖子，所以有人可以随意证明我错了。
That makes sense though it was more of a one off event. The first Chinese person to see the French and British monarchs was a priest who communicated in Latin and Catholic missionaries were court astronomers well into the 1800s
这是有道理的，尽管它更像是一个一次性事件。第一个见到法国和英国君主的中国人是一位用拉丁语交流的牧师，天主教传教士一直是 1800 年代的宫廷天文学家
wasn't it more like they had border issues with Russians and the only common tongue russian bishops or intellectuals and chinese guys was latin?
难道这不是更像是因为他们与俄罗斯人有边界问题，俄罗斯主教或知识分子和中国人唯一通用的语言是拉丁语吗？
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I think it's because prior to them their only contact with Europe was ancient Rome and then the Byzantines.
Obviously Europe was pretty busy with the collapse of the empire so they had very few encounters outside of trade- plus Latin was kind of a universal language after Rome had fallen.
我认为这是因为在他们之前，他们与欧洲的唯一联系是古罗马，然后是拜占庭。
显然，欧洲正忙于帝国的崩溃，所以他们在贸易之外的接触很少——再加上拉丁语在罗马沦陷后成为一种通用语言。
They also had contact with the Jesuit missionaries who went to China, but since they primarily spoke Latin too, at least in their texts it makes sense for them to think that Latin was the main language for most other countries
他们也与去中国的耶稣会传教士有过接触，但由于他们也主要讲拉丁语，至少在他们的文本中是这样，中国人认为拉丁语是大多数其他国家的主要语言是有道理的
When your nation is so xenophobic they think modern technology is barbaric.
They also speak in Latin to envoys... Because yeh, you think only the Romans were equal chads.
当你的国家如此仇外时，他们会认为现代技术是野蛮的。
他们还用拉丁语对使节讲话...因为是的，他们认为只有罗马人是与之平等的。
Speaking Latin to envoys is based though.
不过，与使节讲拉丁语是有根据的。
Jesuits taught latin to Chinese aristocrats and court officials, and British elite were also classically educated. Had more to do with it being a good intermediary language than that
耶稣会士向中国贵族和宫廷官员教授拉丁语，英国精英也接受古典教育。与其说它是一种傲慢不如说这确实是良好的中间语言
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That’s a xenophobic comment on you.
Qing Dynasty didn’t reject modern weaponry because they thought these weapons were barbaric in the sense of being inferior. On the contrary, it was because they recognized the superb power of modern weaponry in the hands of the British that they didn’t want them. They rejected modern weapons precisely because they saw that their destructive power was so immense that they could unbalance the Chinese way of life built upon Confucianism. Their “error” was that they chose peace while believing that Europeans were too far to represent a real menace. The Chinese got too idealist.
你的评论才仇外。
清朝拒绝现代武器装备，并不是因为他们认为这些武器是野蛮的，是低劣的。相反，正是因为他们认识到了英国人手中现代武器装备的超强威力，他们才不想要这些武器。他们之所以拒绝现代武器，正是因为他们看到它们的破坏力是如此之大，以至于它们可以使建立在儒家思想基础上的中国生活方式失衡。他们的“错误”在于他们选择了和平，同时认为欧洲人离得太远无法形成真正的威胁。中国人太理想主义了。
从某种意义上说，冒着一些不合时宜的风险，但为了比较，我还是想说，清朝已经变得像后来经历过世界大战的英国和法国那样理想主义，提倡空洞的承诺，如禁止战争（1928年，布里安-凯洛格条约）和虚幻的可能性，如对德国进行绥靖。这正是他们错误的地方。
另外，清朝与英国人在正常情况下讲拉丁语的情况实际上从未发生过。它只发生过一次，在 1793 年，在马戛尔尼“出使”期间，当时英国人在远东还是新手：因为当时英国人在中国海域只是新来者，没有中国人会说英语，英国人也不会说普通话，唯一可用的选择是说葡萄牙语或拉丁语——由于葡萄牙与中国自16世纪以来逐步建立的古老的商业和耶稣会关系，一些普通的中国人可以说这种语言。英国人当然选择了拉丁语，因为他们也不会说葡萄牙语。不过，在那一年的第一次正式接触之后，没有一方再次在官方交流中使用拉丁语。
Indian empires crying in the distance
远方哭泣的印度帝国
*Moghul empire
修正：莫卧儿帝国
An Empire. Never truly a nation. Key point in understanding the 1800s.
一个帝国。从来不是一个真正的民族国家。这是理解 1800 年代的关键点。
Highly inaccurate. The Qing dynasty only very slowly broke apart but the reasons were mostly not exterior but domestic issues. The Qing rulers lost influence and power in their own huge domain because of ineptitude, corruption and rebellions. Still, any other empire would have disintegrated on the spot. It took over a century for the Empire to finally come to an end. The "century of humiliation" narrative is a more recent creation that stemmed largely from the mistreatment of China after the treaty of Versailles which caused a wave of national sentiment during the May 4th movement.
这张图非常不准确。清朝的分裂非常缓慢，而且原因大多不是外部问题，而是内部问题。由于无能、腐败和叛乱，清朝统治者在自己广阔的领土上失去了影响力和权力。尽管如此，在任何其他帝国都会当场瓦解的情况下。帝国用了一个多世纪才终于走到了尽头。“百年屈辱”的叙事是较近的产物，主要源于《凡尔赛条约》后对中国的不公，在五四运动中掀起了一股民族情绪浪潮。
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Would you elaborate on the latter half of that? Because that sounds exactly the type of "new regime" propaganda I'd expect from any fledgling nation.
您能否详细说明后半部分？因为这听起来正是我所能想到的任何新兴国家的“新政权”宣传的类型。
The inciting incident was Wilson going into the Treaty of Versailles promising the end of imperialism and the value of self-determination…only to cede Germany’s Chinese colony to Japan, not China. The birthplace of Confucius, and it was given to Japan, their biggest enemy. It sparked nationwide protests and mixed with anti-traditionalist currents to create the May Fourth movement. The May Fourth movement birthed both the KMT and the CCP, both of whom were very nationalist at heart.
煽动性事件是威尔逊签署凡尔赛条约，一边承诺帝国主义的终结和自决的价值……一边将德国在中国的殖民地割让给日本，而不是中国。孔子的出生地，给了他们最大的敌人日本。这引发了全国性的抗议，并与反传统主义潮流混合在一起，形成了五四运动。五四运动催生了国共，两者的内心都是非常民族主义的。
Rome had all that problems plus Praetorian guard and was almost destroyed tons of times and still keep on living,it's BS that only China could survive that,when China called apart numerous time because of it,while Roma keep surviving Empire destroying crisis time after time,like third century crisis.
罗马存在所有这些问题加上禁卫军，被摧毁了很多次，但仍然继续存在，所以说只有中国才能幸存下来是扯淡，因为当中国无数次因此而分裂时，罗马却在帝国一次又一次地摧毁危机中幸存下来，比如第三世纪的危机。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Ok, sure. If you ignore the complexity of the Qing and how much more population they controlled than you can make that argument. I just wanted to point out that the "sudden" change in Qing government capabilities through foreign interventions is a lie, the Qing mostly weakened itself.
你当然可以这么想。如果你忽略了清朝的复杂性以及他们控制的人口数量，你的论点就不值一驳。我只是想指出，清政府是因为外国干预而“突然”失去了能力是一个谎言，清政府在很大程度上是自己削弱了自己。
Regional warlords were also a key factor in the fall of the Qing Dynasty. There is also a wrong conception that the Qing army was extremely archaic for their era. It's wrong because the Beiyang Army was made by 36 Divisions with Western training and equipment, mostly with the help of German advisors, the problem is that the army was highly influenced by warlords which made it betray the Qing dynasty in 1911 on Xinhai Revolution. Qing government also tried to do some reforms in the late 1800s and early 1900s but still, controlling so many million people under a corrupt autocracy there was no way it can succeed, same happened in Russia and the same would have happened in Japan if the Meiji restoration hadn't happened, at that point the implosion is unavoidable.
I have to say also that there was no mistreatment of China in the Versailles treaty. China's claims were conflicting with Japan's claims and due to their different roles in the war is obvious that Japanese claims had priority, Japan was a victor of the Great War, China was barely a belligerent.
地方军阀也是清朝灭亡的一个关键因素。还有一种错误的观念，认为清军在他们那个时代是非常过时的。这是错误的，因为北洋军是由西方训练和装备的36个师组成，主要是在德国顾问的帮助下建立的，问题是这支军队受军阀影响很大，这使得它在1911年辛亥革命时背叛了清朝。清政府在 1800 年代末和 1900 年代初也尝试过进行一些改革，但仍然在腐败的专制统治下控制着数亿人，它不可能成功，同样的情况也发生在俄国，如果没有明治维新，日本也会发生同样的情况，在那个时候，内爆是不可避免的。
我还要说，凡尔赛条约中没有对不起中国的地方。中国的主张与日本的主张相互冲突，并且由于他们在战争中的角色不同，显然日本的主张具有优先权，日本是第一次世界大战的胜利者，中国几乎不是交战国。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
There were conflicting claims to Qingdao? What kind of history do you read? Qindgao is literally on the coastline like 4 hours train from Beijing.
青岛的宣称有争议？你读的是什么历史？青岛高实际上位于中国的海岸线上，距离北京只有约 4 小时的火车车程。
Qingdao being a Chinese city should have been self evident.
青岛作为中国的城市根本不应该被拿来分赃。
Qing China was nowhere near the greatest power in the world in 1796
在 1796 年，清朝中国远不是世界上最强大的国家
No, but for sure it was the greatest power in Asia, I'd say before 1796 tho, this post is highly inaccurate in the dates. In 1600s and 1700s without Japan being a superpower and completely isolated the Qing Empire ruled the trade in Asia and had influence pretty much all over the continent.
不是，但可以肯定的是，它是亚洲最强大的力量，不过我会说是在 1796 年之前，这篇文章的日期非常不准确。在 1600 年代和 1700 年代，日本没有成为超级大国，也没有完全孤立，清帝国统治了亚洲的贸易，几乎在整个大陆都有影响力。