我们是不是高估了自己？
Are we overestimating ourselves?
译文简介
原帖的评论太多，于是一部分用作收费，一部分用作免费给大家。另外虽然主贴引用的数据有点落后，但是真的是2023年2月28日的帖子，不是几年前的。
正文翻译
Are we overestimating ourselves?
我们是不是高估了自己？
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Ally
Our Top rated university is the Indian institute of science, ranked 155 in the global ranking (IIT and IIMs are below that) Rankings, while China has 7 universities ranked higher than Iisc, Top Chinese university is Peking University with a ranking of 12 (https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2023))
I cannot speak on all the things you have mentioned but education is something I'm familiar with at all levels(school to doctorate).
We don't have proper research infrastructure. Go to IIT and speak to phd scholars and you will see that many are just redoing already proven hypothesis.
I do not remember specific names but years ago some top dog physicist at IIT or something spoke about his research at a conference. later he asked another junior to give his honest opinion. The junior physicist gave his honest opinion which more or less dismissed the top dog's research as waste of time. Top Dog Physicist was so offended by the truth that he made life hell for junior and junior had to publicly apologize.
“我们的顶级大学是印度科学研究所，在全球排名中位列155（印度理工学院和印度管理研究所低于此），而中国有7所大学的排名高于印度科学研究所，中国顶级大学是北京大学，排名12。”
我没法对你列出的所有数据发表评论，不过教育领域是我在所有这些里最熟悉的（从本科到博士）。
我们没有适当的研究基础设施。去IIT（注：印度理工学院）和博士学者交谈，你会发现很多人只是在重做已经被证实的假设。
我不记得具体的名字了，但多年前，IIT的某位顶级物理学家在一次会议上谈到了自己的研究，然后他要求另一个初级物理学家给出他的真实意见。那位初级物理学家发表了他的真实意见，或多或少地把这位顶级物理学家的研究否定为浪费时间。顶级物理学家被这个事实激怒了，之后给这个后辈穿小鞋，后辈不得不公开道歉。
My friend who is a phd scholar got the phd admission because her father knew the university dean. Many supervisors are notorious for making the scholars do demeaning work for them(there was case of a supervisor who made his students cook and clean in his house).
5 years ago my friend and college senior tried getting his phd in India but was ridiculed by many colleges for trying to do phd after engineering. One professor accepted his application but put forward a condition that my friend can only do the research topic allocated to him by college. My friend went to germany and did his phd and now works at daimler.
Education in India is focused on creating individuals who can execute instructions well but it actively discourages creativity. change needs to occur at school level.
在我读硕士期间，我必须为我的论文做一些研究，我读了很多西方学生的文章。他们所有的文章或论文都是先写学生的名字，然后再提到作为他们导师的老师的名字。相反，在印度，导师的名字往往印在论文的第一位。
我的一位博士生朋友获得了博士学位，因为她的父亲认识大学院长。许多导师因让学生为他们做有损尊严的工作而臭名昭著（曾有一个导师让他的学生在他家做饭和打扫卫生）。
5 年前，我的朋友兼大学学长本想在印度获得博士学位，却因试图想在学完工程学后再去攻读博士学位而遭到许多大学的嘲笑。一位教授接受了他的申请，但提出了一个条件，我的朋友只能做大学分配给他的研究课题。最后我的朋友去了德国攻读博士学位，现在在戴姆勒工作。
印度的教育侧重于培养能够很好地执行指令的人，但它极大地阻碍了创造力的产生。改变需要发生在学校层面。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
I had to add as first author a professor who we never met, who had zero contributions to our paper, but who gave " guidance " to our supervisor. My memory of his contributions is just our supervisor sending him our drafts and him reading it. No reviews on it, just reading it.
The system is fucked.
我不得不添加一位我们素未谋面的教授作为我们论文的第一作者，他对我们的论文贡献为零，但他为我们的主管提供了“指导”。我对他的贡献的记忆只是我们的主管将我们的草稿发给他并让他阅读。他没有发表任何关于论文的评论，就读了而已。
这个体制完蛋了。
I had a friend who was an idiot but he managed to become a professor in an IIT, because his father was a dean of an NIT.
我有一个朋友是个白痴，但他成功地成为了 IIT 的教授，因为他的父亲是 NIT 的院长。
Damn lucky.... Wish I had a father like that
真幸运....希望我也有个这样的父亲
I second this, i am from IIT and our Math professor does not know how to teach. He has literally never interacted with students in class. He comes, writes something on board and goes out. 5% of students used to have more than 80% attendance in his class. I still could not believe how he ended up in teaching role
我支持这一点，我来自 IIT，我们的数学教授根本不知道如何教学。他几乎从未在课堂上与学生互动过。他来了，他在板上写了点什么，他出去了。只有5%的学生在他的课上出勤率超过80%。我还是无法相信他到底是如何成为一名教师的。
To Be fair research does not correlate with teaching skiils. I had European professor from top tier university teaching dog shit and it was a top college
公平地说，研究与教学技能无关。我在顶级大学也见过教得依托答辩的欧洲教授教，那可是一所顶级大学。
OP
So true, Our education system is focused so much on memorisation than intellect and application of knowledge.
的确如此，我们的教育系统非常注重记忆，而不是智力和知识的应用。
As someone who spent 4 years at a top university in Hong Kong, I can vouch for the fact that even the Chinese education system is heavily oriented towards memorisation rather than gaining comprehensive insights (for that, the European education system at least at a university level beats everything else out of the water)
作为一个在香港顶尖大学度过 4 年的人，我可以保证即使中国的教育体系也非常注重记忆而不是获得全面的洞察力（因此，至少在大学水平上欧洲教育体系击败了其他所有人）
Everything is a scam. People literally copy their entire PhD thesis word for word and nobody bothers.
一切都是骗局。人们逐字逐句地从别处复制文章到他们的博士论文里，没有人在乎。
Student at IISc here, just wanted to counter a few points you made.
Although what you said is true in most of the tier-2 and tier-3 colleges, in basic sciences, particularly physics, chemistry and biology, student's names come first and supervisor's the last.
People in IISc, TIFR, ICTS, HRI, SNBCBS, RRI, JNCASR etc do gey admission just on the basis of merit and nothing else. You don't need to know anybody.
I have seen people work on stuff that is novel on multiple levels. There are several things that are considered hot topic all over the world which actually began in India and was done by Indian researchers in Indian universities.
I am not saying that whatever you have said is wrong, just making a point that good work also happens here.
IISc 的学生在这里，我想反驳你提出的几点。
虽然你说的大部分在二三线院校都是真的，但是在基础学科，尤其是物理、化学、生物，学生名在前，导师名在后。
在IISc、TIFR、ICTS、HRI、SNBCBS、RRI、JNCASR等学院，人们只会根据成绩而不是其他因素来录取。你不需要认识任何人。
我见过有人从事在多个层面上都很新颖的东西。有几件在全世界被认为是热门话题的事情实际上始于印度，是由印度研究人员在印度大学完成的。
我不是说你说的都是错的，只是想说明，这里也有人在踏踏实实工作。
I'm from IISER-K .. (maybe a tier 1 cllg in India in research?).. recently student committed suicide cause his guide wasn't letting him complete his PhD even after 7 yrs, why?, Because the student was good and publishing papers.. what happened to the prof.? Nothing.. 50% of profs here never show up at their labs for an entire year.. I did my MS thesis from an IIT.. guide didn't give recommendation letter cause i didn't publish a paper for him
我来自IISER-K ..（算是印度研究机构中的一线大学吧？）.. 最近有学生自杀了，因为他的导师将他的博士学位拖了 7 年，为什么？因为学生是很好使唤的牛马和发表论文的机器...教授有受到什么处罚吗？什么都没有...这里 50% 的教授整整一年都没有出现在他们的实验室里...我在IIT完成了我的 MS 论文...导师没有给推荐信，因为我没有为他发表论文
Indians are busy in preparing for govt jobs what can you expect from Mass of youth studyung History, Civics, Geography for a period of 8 years. The best he/she can do is open up another coaching centre for more such youth and waste their 8 years by teaching them History, Civics, Geography and this cycle continues. No talk of innovation, no new science and tech. And if they do, then there is no respect attached to it, so why anyone wanna do the "HARD THING", when the real respect would be taken away by a History, Civics, Geography guy. Instead they also leave their dreams and study History, Civics, Geography for 8 years and either becames a "Babu" or opens up their own History, Civics, Geography coaching centre
你对一个大量印度年轻人忙着花8年时间学习历史、公民、地理知识只为考政府公务员做准备的社会能有什么指望。这样的人能做的就是为更多这样的年轻人开设另一个公务员考试辅导中心，通过教他们历史、公民、地理来浪费这些年轻人的8年时间，这种循环还在继续。不去谈创新，不去谈新的科学和技术。即使他们这样做，也没有人尊重他们，所以怎么会有人愿意去做"艰苦的事情"呢？因为大家都只会尊重那些学习历史、公民和地理的考公务员的人。于是，他们也只好放弃自己的梦想，去学习历史、公民、地理8年，之后要么成为一个"巴布（公务员）"，要么就去开设自己的历史、公民、地理公务员考试辅导中心。
Yeah, when the whole world is focused on science and technology, our youth is stuck in the past studying random history facts and knowledge that has no relevance in today's age. And I don't even get the appeal of a government job, why would anyone like to get stuck in the same role or organisation for life with no scope of advancement based on caliber and shit pay.
是的，当全世界都在关注科学技术时，我们的年轻人却停留在过去，学习随机的历史事件和知识，与今天的时代毫无关联。我甚至不明白政府工作的吸引力，为什么有人会喜欢一辈子被困在同一个角色或组织中，没有基于能力的晋升空间和低到不行的工资。
That's why we love to compete with Pakistan lol
这就是为什么我们喜欢与巴基斯坦竞争哈哈
People in india focus on high salary packages than knowledge. Chinese people do have same thoughts but the research and development is insane compared to india.
印度人更看重高薪而不是知识。中国人虽然确实也有同样的想法，但与印度相比，他们的研发投入也是惊人的。
The average Indian that I meet is not smart at all. Most are cruising through life on easy mode. Scientific literacy is bare minimal, and academic excellence is rarely seen(people care about marks and jobs, very few can apply that knowledge they memorized by rote.) The education system is broken. The quality of government teachers is pathetic, and the worst of us become teachers (mostly.) Private education is sub par even in the elite schools(though they have a few good teachers.) Primary school teachers are generally less intelligent(less smart than a good student currently in high school), and are overburdened with mundane work. Parents like seeing good marks in the report cards, even if their child sucks at every subject.
Higher education is decent, since at this stage, children can make their own effort, and use the internet to clear their doubts.
Research in India doesn't pay well(rarely even pays.) And the quality is something we need to work on. We are not given enough paid time off for research. The funding is lacking too.
Those IQ scores seem accurate to me.
We will catch up, though. In 20-50 years, depending on government efforts.
我遇到的普通印度人一点都不聪明。大多数人都在轻松模式下度过生活。科学素养几乎没有，学术上的卓越表现也很少见（人们关心的是分数和工作，很少有人能应用他们死记硬背的知识）。教育系统已经崩溃。政府教师的质量很差，我们中最差的人成为了教师（大部分）。私立教育即使在精英学校也是不合格的（尽管他们有几个好老师）。小学教师通常不那么聪明（不如正读高中的好学生聪明），并且被平凡的工作压得喘不过气来。父母喜欢看到报告单上的好分数，即使他们的孩子每门功课都很糟糕。
高等教育是体面的，因为在这个阶段，孩子们可以自己努力，并利用互联网来消除他们的疑虑。
印度的研究工作报酬不高（甚至很少有报酬），质量是我们需要努力提高的地方。我们没有给予研究人员足够的带薪休息时间。研究资金也很匮乏。
这个智商分数在我看来是准确的。
不过，我们会赶上的。在20-50年内，取决于政府的努力。
Yeah - the financial media hypes up India since we need more FDI $$$$
是的 - 金融媒体大肆宣传印度，因为我们需要更多的外国直接投资$$$$
Our start-up/NRI people are the biggest hypocrites we have. Most of them go abroad and sing praises of India. But never do anything substantial in India apart from 'Angel Invest'. A major part of China's success goes to the Chinese people who went to study in the west but returned to China to start companies.
On the other hand Chinese people are hard working since their Mao Zedong cultural revolution. Hardwork is their thing. Manufacturing is hard, Hardware is hard.
We Indians just look for shortcuts (it has its pros and cons) and want to build bullshit apps that nobody wants. Apart from INFY and TCS who provide some value to the west. We barely have a global level product. Maybe INFY and TCS are to blame but what all thewe startups are building have no competitive advantage in terms of technology. These things have been discussed in Indian-tech-twitter spaces but people still need to understand our attitude towards science and innovation.
I currently live in a rural area and I see people owning iPhone, bullets, Suv's and what not and everything is on loans.
I find that as a country we have no appetite for growth and risk taking but we just want show off our richness.
But Idiots will bark about the Vishwaguru bullshit on social media.
我们的初创投资者们是我们中最大的伪君子。他们中的大多数人都身在国外，却对印度赞不绝口。但除了"天使投资"之外，他们从未在印度做过任何实质性的工作。中国的成功有很大一部分归功于那些去西方学习但回到中国创办公司的中国人。
另一方面，自文革以来，中国人一直在努力工作。勤奋是他们的品质。努力制造，努力工作。
我们印度人只会寻找捷径（这有其优点和缺点），并且只想去搞一些无人问津的狗屁APP。除了INFY（印孚瑟斯）和TCS（塔塔咨询服务公司）在为西方提供一些价值之外。我们几乎没有全球水平的产品。也许 INFY 和 TCS 这类东西就是罪魁祸首，但我们所有的初创企业正在建造的产品在技术方面都没有竞争优势。这些话题已经在其他地方讨论过了，但人们仍然需要了解我们对科学和创新的态度。
我目前住在一个农村地区，我看到人们拥有iPhone、子弹（注：印度产的一种豪华摩托车）、SUV什么的，一切都靠贷款。
我发现，作为一个国家，我们没有增长和承担风险的欲望，我们只想炫耀我们的财富。
但白痴们却在社交媒体上大肆宣扬Vishwagur（梵文：意为世界导师）之类的鬼话。
It maybe a minority, but there are Indians who would definitely figure in the top percentile of the world in terms of talent, dedication, passion and much more.
But the education system here, and the societal pressures screws with people too much. Only those who can afford to get out of these pressures can then realise their potential, as such the number of success stories coming out of the bn+ population is very low.
Suffice to say, the expatriate population of Indians much like rest of the Asians are one of the best performing in the west and Middle East in terms of social mobility and earning potential.
As such I would say we are indeed overestimating our current capabilities, but severely under estimating the capacity of Indians provided sufficient transformation in education, social structures, Healthcare and food security exist. I've seen highly talented out of this world people among the very financially unfurtonate, or chronically ill who just can't reach the global stage ever in their life, unless some miracle happens.
也许是少数，但有些印度人在天赋、奉献、激情等方面绝对是世界顶尖的。
但这里的教育系统和社会压力对人们的影响太大。只有那些有能力摆脱这些压力的人才能实现他们的潜力，因此，十几亿人口中的成功故事数量非常少。
可以说，印度的外籍人口和其他亚洲人一样，在社会流动性和收入潜力方面是西方和中东地区表现最好的人口之一。
因此，我认为我们确实高估了我们目前的能力，但严重低估了印度人的潜力，前提是教育、社会结构、医疗保健和食品安全方面存在足够的变革。我见过一些非常有才华的人，他们在经济上非常困难，或者患有慢性病，所有除非奇迹发生，否则他们一生都无法登上全球舞台。
We as a people aren’t there yet to compete with an average Chinese person.
They are corrupt, suppressed, poor too.
But their work ethic will be superior to anyone else.
我们作为一个民族还没有达到与普通中国人竞争的程度。
他们也是FB的，被Y制的，贫穷的。
但他们的职业道德优于其他任何人。
I am not. Most of the Indians are. At least those around me.
Whenever I state facts people look at me as if I am anti-national or something. According to them China is going to be bankrupt, US dollar is losing dominance so fast that US is going to collapse too, but India on the other hand going to overtake them in 5 years thanks to Modiji.
我没有高估印度。但大多数印度人是这样。至少我身边的人是这样。
每当我陈述事实时，人们都会以一种看恨国党公知的眼光看着我。根据他们的说法，中国即将OO，美元正在迅速失去主导地位，美国也将崩溃，但另一方面，印度将在5年内超越他们，而且这都要归功于莫迪姬。
Even chad jayshanker admitted to this. And these stats make me quite sad as i read them. Remember we were always told we would be a really big economy and player soon. But now growing up and realising it’s still a distant dream is crushing to an extent.
就连苏杰生（注：印度现任外交部长）也承认了这一点。我在阅读这些统计数据时感到非常难过。请记住，我们总是被告知我们很快就会成为一个真正的超级经济体和世界参与者。但现在我们长大了，意识到这仍然是一个遥远的梦想，这在某种程度上令人心碎。
India under BJP is living in a bubble. They’re forgetting that China exists and the right wing extremists have started targeting USA for some reason.
People in America are law abiding citizens who do everything by the books and work hard for what they have.
Here people mostly use plagiarism in everything and make a mediocre product.
Even the YouTubers of India are just cheap copies of innovative American Channels.
China also has better mentality than Indians. They also know how to follow the rules and have some morals.
The youth there also have sexual freedom, etc while in India it’s like a Hindu version of Saudi Arabia
人民党领导下的印度正生活在一个泡沫中。他们忘记了中国的存在，而右翼极端分子出于某种原因开始针对美国。
美国人是遵纪守法的公民，他们按部就班地做每一件事，并为他们所拥有的东西努力工作。
而在印度这里，人们大多在所有事情上抄袭，做出平庸的产品。
即使是印度的YouTubers，也只是对美国创新频道的廉价复制。
中国也有比印度人更好的心态。他们也知道如何遵守规则，有一些道德。
那里的年轻人也有性自由，等等，而在印度，就像印度版的沙特阿拉伯。
I am from Tamilnadu, and although I agree with many points,few points are a bit exaggerated. There are highly talented people around me, we surely are trending on the positive direction. Also, in my state homosexuality is legalized
我来自泰米尔纳德邦，虽然我同意很多观点，但有几点说得有点夸张。我周围有很多才华横溢的人，我们肯定在朝着积极的方向发展。另外，在我所在的邦，同性恋是合法的
but in the end it doesn't even matter
Homosexuality is legalized everywhere in India. Question is how much society accepts it, how much hostility gay people face from an average Indian.
同性恋在印度很多邦都是合法的。问题是社会接受它的程度有多少，普通印度人对同性恋者的敌意有多大。
IQ isn't an accurate measure of intelligence and is heavily influenced by economic factors.
智商不是衡量智力的准确指标，并且受经济因素的影响很大。
No one ever asked me for my IQ I’m sure I’d bump that average up
从来没有人问过我的智商，我相信我会提高平均水平
I'm not sure about others but I'm certainly not overestimating our nation
我不确定其他人如何，但我肯定不会高估我们的国家
Show this to BJP Voters. They are the biggest fools in the nation.
将这些展示给人民党选民看。他们是这个国家最大的傻瓜。
Not like Congress will do anything good. Our country is just fucked up both ways..
国大党也没干过什么好事。我们的国家在这两个方面都一团糟。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Congress would taken our country forward even though it will be slow. But merchants of hate have taken us 20 years back. We look like a bunch of uncivilised savages now. Thanks to the megalomaniac in power.
国大党将推动我们的国家前进，尽管它会很慢。但是仇恨商人让我们倒退了 20 年。我们现在看起来像一群未开化的野蛮人。感谢掌权的自大狂。
Probably this shows the difference. People in India are busy being divided along political lines , religion , caste , economic-social status , states etc etc etc. Meanwhile China working away quietly “Keep calm and carryon “ attitude , innovating and working hard and going way past any other country in terms of development.
这大概说明了两国的差异。印度人民正忙于因政治路线、宗教、种姓、经济社会地位、各邦等而分裂。与此同时，中国以“保持冷静，继续前进”的态度默默地工作，创新和努力，在发展方面远远超过其他国家。
Even tho the number of people who are extremely nationalist are very small, the media foucses on them, they make sure they talk about it everywhere, making normal people think the same
极端民族主义的人虽然极少，但媒体非常关注他们，处处谈论他们，逐渐让普通人也开始这么想
I feel you have made a good point. Presently India has a lot of potential to become a global superpower and have the one thing that is limiting worldwide... Human resource. However, our leaders are not very good at leveraging this in the world. And this reflects in the numbers that you have listed. So may be we are overestimating ourselves.
我觉得你说得很对。目前，印度有很大的潜力成为全球超级大国，并且拥有一件全球都很紧俏的事……人力资源。然而，我们的领导人并不擅长在世界上利用这一点。这反映在你列出的数字中。所以我们可能高估了自己。
I feel like no one wants another China so they are kinda weary of India. I think if we open our markets to others unlike China, we could do pretty well. We need a better education system where it focuses on application rather than memorisation. We need to invest in research and development. Allot of our products lack quality control too.
我觉得没有人想要另一个中国，所以他们对印度有点厌烦。我认为，如果我们像中国一样向其他国家开放市场，我们可以做得很好。我们需要一个更好的教育系统，它侧重于应用而不是记忆。我们需要投资于研究和开发。我们的很多产品也缺乏质量控制。
I am an economist, and I have studied country comparisons well.
India is nowhere near China in most fronts, except freedom of speech, religion, etc. Those are withering away too in India nowadays without an offset via economic progress that China managed,
A more fair economic comparison for India is perhaps Bangladesh and Vietnam.
我是一名经济学家，我对国家间的比较有一些研究。
除了言论自由、宗教自由等，印度在大多数方面都与中国相去甚远。如今，这些在印度也正在消失，却没有像中国那样通过经济进步来抵消。
对印度来说，更合适的经济方面的比较也许是孟加拉国和越南。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Everyone knows China is more powerful
But that doesn't mean we should be afraid of it
每个人都知道中国更强大
但这并不意味着我们应该害怕它
The good new is that we are rising up and China is sliding down. We will catch up somewhere, God willing.
好消息是，我们正在崛起，而中国正在下滑。我们会在某个时候赶上的，老天保佑。
china has the most number of atheists in the world & their development makes a true sense.
中国拥有世界上最多的无神论者，他们的发展是有道理的。
Funny how people are constantly downvoting this too, the realisation that their motherland isn't what it's made out to be. Wake up, Hindustan is far from being the paradise you think it is
有趣的是，人们也不断地反对这一点，意识到他们的祖国并不是它所想象的那样。醒醒吧，印度斯坦远不是你想象中的天堂
No one is saying we're at the same level as China. We know we're still catching up, but we also realise that we are indeed catching up.
We're in a much better place than we were, say 20 years ago. 20 years in the future, we'll be in a much better place than we are right now. With China's dwindling population dividend, maybe we can catch up to them sooner than we anticipated, IF we play our cards right.
没有人说我们跟中国处于同一水平。我们知道我们仍在追赶，但我们也意识到，我们确实在追赶。
我们现在的情况要比20年前好得多。20年后，我们的情况会比现在好得多。随着中国人口红利的减少，也许我们可以比我们预期的更快地赶上他们，如果我们打好我们的牌的话。