话题讨论：为什么越战老兵回到美国后会受到糟糕的对待?
Why were Vietnam veterans treated poorly upon return to U.S.?
译文简介
网友：我是美国陆军的一名预备役军人。我偶然发现了一些旧报纸的剪报，然后钻进了一个兔子洞。我读到，越战老兵在回到美国后，被美国海外退伍军人协会告知他们“不是退伍军人”，他们被告知摘掉战斗步兵徽章，因为他们“没有赢得这些徽章”......
正文翻译
I am a reservist in the U.S. Army. I stumbled upon old newspaper clippings and went down a rabbit hole. I read that Vietnam veterans returned to the U.S. and were told they “weren’t veterans” by the VFW, that they were told to take their Combat Infantry Badges (CIBs) off because they “hadn’t earned them.” Pretty much, from what I’m reading, WWII & Korean War vets refused to acknowledge Vietnam vets as “real veterans” Why was that? I have respect for the Vietnam era veterans and for all their sacrifices, knowing that many went against their will. Vietnam veterans: are you still upset about your treatment by the old heads or what is your general opinion of how all that unfolded?
我是美国陆军的一名预备役军人。我偶然发现了一些旧报纸的剪报，然后钻进了一个兔子洞。我读到，越战老兵在回到美国后，被美国海外退伍军人协会告知他们“不是退伍军人”，他们被告知摘掉战斗步兵徽章，因为他们“没有赢得这些徽章”。基本上，从我读到的东西来看，二战和朝鲜战争的老兵拒绝承认越战老兵是“真正的老兵”，这是为什么? 我尊重越战时期的退伍军人和他们所有的牺牲，知道许多人并非自愿参战。越战老兵：你们还在为那些老家伙对待你们的方式而烦恼吗? 或者你们对这一切是如何展开的有什么总体看法?
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My dad never forgave the American people for his treatment upon return. The vets took the blame for "not winning" a war they didn't want to be in and had no choice over due to the draft.
我的父亲永远不会原谅美国人在他回国后对待他的做法。对于这场他们并不想参与，但由于征兵制度而别无选择的战争，他们承担了“没有获胜”的指责。
The Vietnam war was lost in the mid-60s at the political leadership level, and later in the media. The vets have no blame for the defeat.
越南战争输在60年代中期的政治领导层，以及后来的媒体。老兵们对这次失败没有责任。
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Limited warfare is a bitch, my friend. I can't grasp "let's war, but nice." If we don't have the balls/support to go all in, we shouldn't do it.
有限战争太烦人了，朋友。我不能理解“我们开战吧，但还是算了吧。”如果我们没有勇气全力以赴，我们就不应该去做。
Going all in isn't really a thing now that nukes exist.
现在由于核弹的存在，全力以赴是不可能的。
The only all in for an insurgency is extermination. Not worth it. This wasn't WWII.
对于反抗军，全力以赴的做法是将其消灭。这不值得。这不是二战。
Which was why the entire endeavor was a waste from the start.
这就是为什么整个努力从一开始就是浪费。
早在1963年，参谋长联席会议就知道(基于对情报和法国经验的调查)无论共产党承受多大的压力和痛苦，他们永远不会放弃。要想取得胜利，唯一的办法就是全面oo北越，并迫使越南制定新的宪法和政府，就像1945年的日本那样。
考虑到约翰逊从来没有认真考虑过全面开战，而另一种选择(撤军)也不可接受，所以这个结果是半途而废，其金钱和损失水平不可接受，但同时最终结果也不可接受。
Someone asked a general after the war. "I heard you lost X millions of people fighting?"
His response (Paraphrasing) was "Yes and we'd have lost X million more to win."
Now that wasn't everyone's mentality in the North they did in fact have to deal with public opinion of loosing so many sons and daughters, but yes they were committed.
战后有人问一位将军：“我听说你在战斗中损失了X百万人?”
他的回答是“是的，为了打赢，我们还得再损失X百万人。”
对于北越，并不是每个人都这么想，事实上，他们不得不面对失去这么多儿子和女儿的舆论，但他们确实尽力了。
Presidents passing the buck to their successor for more than a decade.
十多年来，总统们一直把责任推给他们的继任者。
Extermination was exactly what it was. They told us it was a war of attrition where we were expected to "kill ten of them for every one of us who falls." My Senior Drill Instructor taught us "If you're going take as many of the bastards with you as you can."
It worked. North Vietnam admits to 550,000+ KIA while we lost 58,220.
灭绝就是这样。他们告诉我们，这是一场消耗战，“我们每倒下一人，就要杀死十名敌人。”我的高级教官教过我们：“如果可以，你们要尽可能多地干掉那些混蛋。”
这种办法奏效了。北越承认有55万多人阵亡，而我们损失了58220人。
You do realize only about one third of all Nam Vets are draftees yes? The vast majority of us were regulars who signed on to go because we believed it was our duty.
你知道只有三分之一的越战老兵是征召兵吧? 我们中的绝大多数人都是常备军，因为我们相信这是我们的责任。
Of the 2 I know very personally, one was drafted and the other enlisted in the Air Force because he knew he was likely to get drafted.
我本人认识两个人，一个被征兵入伍，另一个自愿加入空军，因为他知道他可能会被征募入伍。
The Vietnam war was very unpopular towards the end of the war. Americans at home lost support of the war, and in return started to react poorly to US troops.
There was a social change among the US population at that time. Not all Americans hated the veterans but many did.
There’s lots of articles about this online that go into depth
越南战争在战争结束时非常不受欢迎。国内的美国人失去了对这场战争的支持，作为回报，他们开始对美国军队反应恶劣。
当时美国人发生了一场社会变革。不是所有的美国人都讨厌退伍军人，但很多人都讨厌。
网上有很多深入探讨这个话题的文章。
Which is sad because many were drafted into that war and had no choice in the matter.
这件事令人悲哀，因为许多人是被征召参加这场战争的，在这件事上没有选择。
I wonder if the same thing happened to Korean veterans.
不知道韩战退伍军人是否也发生了同样的事情。
Alot was due to media attention .....the killing of kids forced to serv under the vc and the televised killing of that guy in thr city by thr chief of police ....very very heavily media spun how the war was going .....family's having sons and daughters stripped away from some war that no one wanted to be apart of
很多是由于媒体的关注……士兵们被迫在越南战场服役，他们的孩子却遭到杀害，还有一个警察局长杀害那个家伙的事情在电视上播报……媒体对这场战争的进展进行了大量报道……很多家庭的子女在某些战争中丧命，没人想要和家人分离。
I don't know why. They weren't volunteers, most were drafted. A lesson was definitely learned by our society by the harm that was done to those veterans. Coming back from Desert Storm we were treated like heroes. Back then big shaggy hair with a possible mullet was popular. People could just tell I was in the military when I went back home. Several of my dinners and drinks were paid for. I'd tell them I didn't see action that I just guarded POWs but it didn't matter. It was like people were making up for the mistakes made 15+ years before.
我不知道为什么。他们不是志愿入伍，大多数都是应征入伍的。我们的社会肯定从那些老兵受到的伤害中吸取了教训。从沙漠风暴中回来，我们被当作英雄对待。那时候，大波浪发型，可能还有乌鱼发型很受欢迎。当我回到家的时候，人们一眼就能看出我是军人。我有好几次的晚餐和饮料都是别人买单的。我会告诉他们我没有亲自参加行动，我只是看守战俘，但这并不重要。这就像是人们在弥补15年多前犯下的错误。
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Over two thirds were volunteers, draftees were a minority in Vietnam.
Just another pop-culture misapprehension.
“越南战争超过三分之二是志愿兵，征召入伍的人是少数。”
这只是另一个流行文化的误解。
You're calling it right. One third were draftees with the vast majority being Army. Everyone else were regulars. What's never said is even a lot of the draftees volunteered to go if they didn't have orders straight out of initial training which was how it went back then. In the Corps they told you on graduation day.
你说得对。三分之一是征召入伍的，其中绝大多数是陆军。其他人都是常备军。但从来没有说过的是，很多征召入伍的人如果没有直接从最初的训练中获得命令，他们就是自愿参军的，而这是当时的情况。在兵团，他们会在毕业那天告诉你。
Upon returning? Vietnam veterans were treated like trash off rip!!
返回? 越南老兵被当做垃圾对待!!
迪克·切尼五次被推迟入伍。唐纳德·特朗普获得了五次延期。乔治·布什在他的国会议员爸爸的帮助下加入了空军国民警卫队，当时国民警卫队还没有在越南服役。比尔·克林顿得到了延期。
基本上所有足够有钱有势的人都得到了延期服役。那些没有得到这种待遇的人就是今天的越战老兵。他们从第一天起就像彩票输家一样失败了。真是卑鄙。我们可以专注于战争结束时的抗议活动，但我们不要在导致那些退伍军人最初被征召入伍的条件上自欺欺人。越南战争纪念墙上的很多人都希望他们能像切尼、克林顿、特朗普等人一样获得延期服役。
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Fortunate Son.
天选之子。
It was hard to fit back into society. I was three years older than all my contemporaries at school. I was trying to get over the shock of so many unarmed people, so many necessary things like power lines and water mains just right out in the open where they could be blown up, so many people walking around like they were immortal, like no one could hurt them.
要重新融入社会是很困难的。我比学校里所有的同级生都大三岁。周围有这么多手无寸铁的人，那么多必要的东西，比如电线和水管，就在空地里，（我以为）它们可能会爆炸，那么多人走来走去，就像他们永远不会死，好像没人能伤害他们，我一度努力从这种震惊中恢复过来。
并不是说人们不友好，但当我提到我去过越南时，他们很困惑，不知道该说些什么。很好。我也不知道该说什么。
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那种感觉很奇怪。以下是我写的一个故事的节选，“傻瓜才会相信”:
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1969年底，我用了三四天的时间，从丛林深处来到科罗拉多大学博尔德分校的一间宿舍，那里的反战狂热正如火如荼地进行着。
当时我快22岁了，我很茫然。我留了头发，试着去上课，穿着肩膀上有第一骑兵团战斗肩章的旧夹克在校园里闲逛。我混进去了。当时学校里没有多少老兵。我好像连一个都没见过。
并不是说我要见很多人。我独自一人，想要弄清事情的真相，想知道我是否能和这些和我一起上课的孩子们交朋友。我当时的处境很糟糕，13年后，同样的情况让我住进了弗吉尼亚州的精神病院。
但我一直想着我什么都不是，什么都不需要做，没有人的生命危在旦夕，这里没有人需要炮兵支援，这他妈怎么可能?
这些压力骤然不见让我变得麻木。压力瞬间下降，我就像在海上一样，独自一人，没有任何似乎有一点紧迫的责任——当然也没有上下级。它让我了解了深海鱼被拖到水面的感觉。它看起来很疼。我可以作证，确实如此。
我正经历着两年来第一个真正的冬天——似乎既新奇又适宜，与我的心情相吻合。冬天的士兵。是的。
但最糟糕的是，我知道我的兄弟还在越南的丛林里。所有反战的东西与我无关，与我的兄弟们无关。是的，如果有一场二战中给退伍老兵的阅兵就好了。
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如今，他们会把所有部队都带回来，一次全部，组成一个方阵，然后把他们全部交给他们的配偶、孩子、家人和朋友。
那样就好了。我在电视上看过几次这样的重聚，每次都让我热泪盈眶。这就是做这件事的方法。
Welcome Home Brother
欢迎回来，兄弟。
Thank you, Marine. I worked with 3MarDiv along the DMZ. Always fun people, tho' some of them weren't as fun as a machine gunner.
Semper Fi.
谢谢你，马润。我曾在第三马润师服役，一直在非军事区。里面的老哥各个都是人才，也有一些机枪手没意思。
永！远！忠！诚！
Semper Fi Brother
永！远！忠！诚！兄弟！
My squadron paraded through Miami after Desert Storm with a bunch of other units. We brought a few of our many, many trucks (M-35, I think). On the sides of one, we made these big signs: "Desert Storm vets thank the Vietnam Vets"
沙漠风暴之后，我所在的中队和一群其他部队曾在迈阿密游行。我们把很多很多卡车中的一些(我想是M-35)开回去了。在一辆卡车的侧边，我们做了这样的大标语:“沙漠风暴老兵感谢越战老兵。”
Y'know, for some reason or another when young people (under, say, 25) find out that I was in Vietnam, they get almost churchy. They hang their heads a little, but look me right in the eyes and say something like "Thank you for your service, Sir," like they're apologizing for someone else. It's sweet.
你知道，因为这样或那样的原因，当年轻人(比如25岁以下的)知道我去过越南时，他们几乎都要开始祷告了。他们会稍微低下头，但是看着我的眼睛说一些类似“谢谢您的服务，先生”之类的话，好像在为别人道歉。真甜。
但事已至此。从越南回来的老兵的所有遭遇现在都被封锁了。没有补救措施，这一切都没有办法挽回。
但我记得你们从“沙漠风暴”回来的场面——在电视上看到的。我知道你们还记得我们，因为这就是我们这些穿上军装宣誓的人的做法。但那个标语很感人。
谢谢你的分享。很有意义。
That was beautifully written
写的真好。
Thank you.
谢谢。
I read your story as well. Have you considered writing a book?
我也读了你的故事。你考虑过写本书吗?
I have. But y'know, the book publishers don't seek you out.
我有。但是你知道，图书出版商不会选我。
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而且我可没心情把我的故事卖给出版商。我写它们(我在reddit上写了大约60个故事)是作为一种治疗。越战结束13年后，我因创伤后应激障碍而住院——最好的治疗方法是集体治疗，在那里，老兵们谈论他们难以忍受的事情，每个人都在倾听和理解。
同样的治疗也在军队故事中进行。我把一些故事像卸货一样掏出我的大脑，这样就不用一直想着它们。
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我总是惊喜地发现别人可能会读我的故事。很好。希望能有所帮助。如果没有，我希望能博君一笑。我喜欢这些故事变得自由。它们已经不再是我的了。我更像是叙述者。
谢谢你的鼓励。
Never liked those formations as I never had anyone waiting for me just some more army bs to deal with before we get released. I mean it's great and all for the people who have family there but it really amplified that the people who didn't didn't.
我从来都不喜欢这些编队，因为从来没有人等着我，只是在我们离开军队之前，有更多与军队有关的扯淡要处理。我的意思是，对于那些有家人等着他们的人来说，这很好，但这东西真的把那些没有家人的人放大了。
I love all of your stories. We have plenty of GWOT ones and a lot of us have our own but yours just elicit such different feelings.
我喜欢你的故事。已经有很多反恐战争的故事了，而且我们很多人也有自己的，而你的故事给我以完全不一样的感觉。
我叔叔在越南战争期间在海军服役，只有在我分享了自己在海上的经历后，他才开始敞开心扉。他最终去了退伍军人管理局接受了所有的残疾待遇，而他多年前就该去的，我希望我能在其中发挥一点作用。
Thank you for taking the time to tell me your impression of my stories. There is a give-and-take on reddit that no book can match.
感谢您花时间告诉我您对我的故事的印象。reddit上有一种互谅互让的交流方式，没有哪本书能与之匹敌。
When my father left south Vietnam in 1970, he returned home to Cleveland where two teenagers spit in his face in the airport. After Vietnam he continued to serve in the army reserves and retired as a Major in PSYOPS. He said the best thing he ever did was remain active as a reservist after the horrors he saw as an officer in the army’s “black ops” in Vietnam. He had a vary hard time relating to anyone but those he served with. I have never seen grown men cry as hard as those men did during my fathers funeral. I had to help one walk to my fathers casket to pay his last respects. There is such a unique bond between those who served in combat together. I’m grateful to have seen it first hand.
1970年，我父亲离开了南越，回到了克利夫兰的家，两个青少年在机场朝他脸上吐口水。越战结束后，他继续在陆军预备役服役，并以PSYOPS少校的身份退休。他说，他做过的最好的一件事是，在他作为一名参与了越南“黑色行动”的军官，并目睹那些可怕场面之后，仍然作为一名预备役军人保持活跃。除了和他一起服役的人，他很难和任何人相处。在我父亲的葬礼上，那些成年人哭的那么伤心，我从未见过像他们那样的人。我不得不扶着一个人走到我父亲的棺材前，向他表达最后的敬意。一起在战斗中服役的人之间有一种独特的纽带。我很感激能亲眼看到。
My grandma was numb for years when he came back my dad said... he also said it was like nothing ever happened
我爸爸说，当他回来的时候，我奶奶已经麻木好几年了……他还说就像什么都没发生过一样。
LBJ is to blame for the fiasco of Vietnam. McNamara would second after the president.
约翰逊要为越南的惨败负责。麦克纳马拉仅次于这个总统。
If you want to go on a deep dive I suggest the minis series called “The Vietnam War”. It gives a pretty real view from both sides of the the war and goes into the politics. Also answers the very questions you’re asking.
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1877514/
如果你想深入了解，我建议你看一部名为“越南战争”的迷你剧。它从战争双方的角度给出了一个非常真实的观点，并涉及到政治。也能回答你的问题。
My dad was a Korean war vet who stayed in until 1969. He was very active in the VFW and American Legion. I remember him reaching out to several returning Vietnam veterans who declined to join. The ones he spoke to just didn't want anything to do with those organizations. Not too hard to understand why, but I doubt many veterans would have turned a cold shoulder to them. Sorry to hear that some did. From what I've heard it was civilians who were hard on the returning troops.
我父亲是一名朝鲜战争老兵，直到1969年才退役。他在海外退伍军人协会和美国退伍军人协会非常活跃。我记得他联系了几位从越南回来的老兵，但他们拒绝加入。与他交谈的那些人完全不想与这些组织有任何关系。不难理解为什么，但我怀疑很多老兵不会对他们冷眼相待。很遗憾有人这么做了。据我所知，是平民对那些回国的部队态度强硬。
It's interesting about your mention about the Vietnam vets not wanting to join those organizations. Here in Canada the RCL is having a very hard time convincing younger vets to join. Most, myself included, don't feel connected to the very korea ww2 focused organization.
你提到越战老兵不想加入那些组织，这很有趣。在加拿大，RCL很难说服年轻的老兵加入。大多数人，包括我自己，都不觉得自己与这个专注于二战的组织有什么感情联系。
We didn't either at first because no one really wanted to have anything to do with the military or anything military related. It wasn't until the eighties we started coming around and by the nineties a lot of us dropped off because we moved on with our lives.
一开始我们也没有，因为没有人真的想和军队有任何关系，或者任何与军事有关的事情。直到80年代，我们才开始来这里，到了90年代，我们中的很多人都离开了，因为要继续我们的生活。
With us it has a lot to do with the Civilianization of the Royal Canadian Legion. They failed to attract newer generations of Veterans and had to pull in Civilians. Which alienates us even more, which has caused some legions to die.
对我们来说，这与加拿大皇家军团的平民化有很大关系。他们没能吸引新一代的退伍军人，只能吸引平民。这更疏远了我们，导致了一些军团组织的消亡。
I sure get you. Don't blame you because what's the point of having a veterans organization filled with civilians who never served?
我明白你的意思。不怪你，因为一个退伍军人组织里都是些从没服役过的平民，这有什么意义?
What you described was how I saw it too. While some of the old vets didn't like us I found out later the World War I vets didn't like them either. It was apparently a generational thing passed on from group to group before we finally started taking everything over during the eighties.
你描述的也是我看到的。虽然有些老老兵不喜欢我们，但后来我发现一战老兵也不喜欢他们。显然，这是一种世代相传的东西，在我们终于在80年代开始接管一切之前，从一群人传到另一群人。
Watch the Tom Cruise film ‘born on the 4th July’ it gives a great insight into how guys returning to the US felt and were treated by……well everyone!
看看汤姆·克鲁斯的电影《生于7月4日》，它给了我们一个很好的视角，让我们了解那些回到美国的人是如何感受的，以及他们是如何被......每个人“善待”的!
Things like these didnt help
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%E1%BB%B9_Lai_massacre
With that said. Veterans are still treated like shit. People call the ones that served hero becouse heroes in their minds doesnt ask for anything in return. They rather leave them untreated, jobless, homeless and doesnt give a fuck if they die by suicide.
那种东西没有帮助。
维基百科：莱村大屠杀。
尽管如此。退伍军人仍然被当做狗屎一样对待。人们称那些为国效力的人为英雄，因为他们心目中的英雄不求任何回报。人们宁愿让他们得不到治疗，失业，无家可归，对他们自杀也毫不在乎。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
I had much the same experience with the VFW returning as a veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan. I joined the VFW and went to a local meeting only to be treated like trash by the Vietnam and Cold War veterans. Was told OIF/OEF wasn’t a real war. Maybe it’s just part of the experience.
作为伊拉克和阿富汗的退伍军人，我也有同样的经历。我加入了海外退伍军人协会，参加了当地的一个会议，结果却被越战和冷战老兵当成垃圾一样对待。他们说OIF（伊拉克自由行动）/OEF（阿富汗持久自由行动）不是一场真正的战争。也许这只是体验的一部分。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
My father was a USMC in Vietnam and passed in 2012 from Agent Orange exposure-related lung cancer and GBM4. His death broke me and I miss him every day; because of him I make sure to thank Veterans when I get the opportunity, especially those who wear something saying they were in Vietnam.
Thank you all for your service, and Welcome Home.
我的父亲是一名在越南服役过的美国海军陆战队士兵，2012年死于与橙剂接触相关的肺癌和GBM4。他的死让我崩溃，我每天都在想念他；因为他，每当我有机会的时候，我一定要感谢退伍军人，尤其是那些穿着印有他们曾在越南服役的衣服的人。
感谢你们所有人的服务，欢迎回家。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处