英国政府决定在2030年代建立无烟社会，大家怎么看？
How do you feel about the governments’ decision about creating a smokeless society by the 2030s?
译文简介
我看到新闻上说购买香烟和与烟草有关的东西时，要求的年龄每年都会提高，以劝阻年轻人远离香烟。
正文翻译
I saw on the news that the age to buy cigarettes and other tobacco-related items would raise every year, in a bid to dissuade younger people from cigs and whatnot. So to buy cigs now you have to be 18, next year you’d have to be 19, then 20 in 2024 and so on.
我看到新闻上说购买香烟和与烟草有关的东西时，要求的年龄每年都会提高，以劝阻年轻人远离香烟。比如现在买香烟必须18岁，明年要19岁，然后到2024年要20岁这样。
Personally I think this raises the issue of what are the government going to do when the taxes for cigarettes goes? Or what about the people who sell fake cigarettes? Or what about the people who go abroad for cheaper cigs and come back to sell their surplus?
在我看来，我认为这引发了一个问题：当香烟税取消了，政府要怎么办？或者那些卖假烟的人？还有那些出国买便宜香烟，然后拿回来卖的人呢？
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在我看来，我认为这引发了一个问题：当香烟税取消了，政府要怎么办？或者那些卖假烟的人？还有那些出国买便宜香烟，然后拿回来卖的人呢？
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
What do you think?
大家怎么看？
大家怎么看？
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I’d look forward to being in my 60s and seeing a gang of people in their 50s hanging around outside the corner shop asking if I can go in and buy them 20 B&H silver.
我期待着在我60多岁的时候，看到一群50多岁的人在街角的商店外徘徊，问我能不能进去帮他们买包烟。
yeah mate im 60 just forgot my ID at home
好的兄弟，我60了，然而我身份证忘家里了
Sorry mate. No ID, no service. We're a 'Challenge 75' store.
抱歉老兄，没有身份证就没法买东西。我们是“挑战75”商店
Smoking costs the economy more than the tax brings in. £17bn in lost productivity and healthcare vs £10bn raise in tax.
吸烟对经济的影响大于税收。生产力和医疗费用损失170亿英镑，而税收100亿英镑。
Alcohol probably costs us even more, why aren't we getting rid of that then?
酒可能会让我们损失更多，我们为什么不戒掉它呢？
I think there is more of a valid social argument for alcohol, it can be enjoyed in modesty and for its taste. Also it simply isn't ever going to happen, it can only be contained. Do the raise the age every year for cigarettes and it will be gone, fairly simply. Not even remotely workable for alcohol.
我认为对于酒，社会上有更多合理的观点证明它可以被适度地享用和品尝。而且它也无法被消灭掉，只能被控制。如果每年都提高吸烟年龄，它就会消灭掉，很简单。这对酒来说根本行不通。
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Technically you could bring in the same policy for alcohol, but there is no societal pressure to do that. Smoking creates second hand smoke, so not only the smoker is affected by it. Alcohol itself only affects the consumer of it (though behavioural impacts of the inebriated can impact others).
严格来说，你可以对酒采取同样的政策，不过是没有这样的社会压力罢了。吸烟会产生二手烟，所以不仅仅是吸烟者会受到影响。酒只影响喝酒的人（尽管醉酒者的行为影响可能会影响其他人）。
Smokers make the best anti-smoke campaigners but the truth is that 90% of them would be far less against it if the taxes didn't make it extremely expensive and the laws / social rules didn't make it extremely inconvenient.
But literally no one would want to be forced through nicotine withdrawal and no one at all wants a habit they are stuck with to become ever more expensive, inconvenient or socially unacceptable.
Vaping is akin to drinking a special kind of alcohol that doesn't wreck your liver and can only get you "very drunk" instead of "black out drunk". The opposition to it is baffling unless people are getting off on tutting at others and controlling others.
烟民是最好的反烟运动者，但事实是，如果税收不让烟变贵，法律/社会规则不让吸烟变得麻烦，那么90%的烟民也不会那么反对它。
然而实际上，没有人希望被迫戒烟，也没有人希望他们所坚持的习惯变得越来越昂贵、不方便或不被社会所接受。
吸电子烟类似于喝一种特殊的酒，不会损害你的肝脏，只会让你有醉感，而不会“酩酊大醉”。反对电子烟实在让人困惑，除非人们对控制他人感到兴奋。
Well said, and I want the vaping version of alcohol
说得好，我想要电子烟版的酒。
My opposition to vaping is to vape users. More specifically, the inconsiderate ones who think all social norms regarding smoking don't apply to them (e.g. near others, in confined spaces, near people eating), and especially those who use extemely pungent liquid.
我反对吸电子烟是因为吸烟者。更具体地说，是那些粗鲁的、认为所有关于吸烟的社会规范都不适用于他们的人（比如在别人旁边、在密闭空间、在吃东西的人旁边），尤其是那些使用刺激性烟油的人。
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Well yeah, those social norms don't apply to vaping because of how it's different from smoking. There's no secondhand vapor danger. Your complaint might as well be about people wearing perfume. The social norms for smoking that you reference are all about the danger of secondhand smoke. None of them are about the smell.
是的，这些社会规范不适用于电子烟，因为它与吸烟有很大的不同。它没有二手烟的危险。你的抱怨也可以用于喷香水的人。你提到吸烟的社会规范都是关于二手烟危险的。这些规范与味道无关。
Except nicotine is one of the least harmful compounds found in cigarettes, despite being the main driver behind addictive behaviour.
Yes it acts as a stimulant and chronic use contributes to increased blood pressure and elevated resting heart rate, but compared to the other compounds it barely compares, mainly because it ISNT carcinogenic.
Vaping has been found to be magnitudes safer than smoking even if long-term studies are few and far between due to the recency in the cultural shift away from smoking towards vaping.
A society of vapers would be a much healthier society than a society of smokers, end of.
尼古丁是香烟中危害性最小的化合物之一，尽管它是导致上瘾行为的主要因素。
是的，它是一种兴奋剂，长期使用会导致血压升高和静息心率升高，但与其他化合物相比，它又微不足道了，主要是因为它不致癌。
人们发现吸电子烟比吸烟要安全很多，尽管从吸烟到吸电子烟的文化转变是新近发生的，所以关于吸电子烟的长期研究很少。
电子烟社会比吸烟社会更健康。
As a smoker, honestly there are some times when I do really enjoy a cigarette, like after a good meal, or with a coffee first thing in the morning.
That being said, all of the things I enjoy about smoking could be achieved by just having 5 minutes to myself in the fresh air every couple of hours, and I absolutely wish I'd never started smoking to begin with.
It costs me about £22 a week, I used to be really fit and active in my late teens/early 20s, but now I get winded so much easier and it's had a massive impact on my health and fitness, and I'm only 27.
老实说，作为一个吸烟者，有些时候我真的很喜欢抽支烟，比如饱餐一顿之后，或者在早上喝咖啡的时候。
话虽如此，享受吸烟的所有事情都可以通过在新鲜空气中呆5分钟来实现，而且我非常希望我从一开始就没有吸烟。
吸烟每周要花我22英镑，我在20岁左右的时候非常健康，但我现在就很容易发虚，这对我的健康和健身产生了巨大影响，而我只有27岁。
You couldn’t do the same with alcohol at all! Do you realise how easy it is to brew your own beer, cider is even easier, you can even make your own spirits with the right kit (tad bit more dangerous though). Look at the prohibition era in America, totally didn’t work. Tobacco isn’t easy to grow in this country and processing it after isn’t easy either.
你根本不能将吸烟的规范用于酒。你知道自己酿造啤酒有多容易吗？苹果酒更容易，你甚至可以用合适的工具酿造烈酒（尽管有点危险）。看看美国的禁酒令时代，完全无效。而烟草在这个国家不容易种植，之后的加工也不容易。
Additionally simple alcoholic drinks are trivial to make at home. You basically can't ban alcohol without banning food whereas eliminating tobacco import and curing is much simpler. Alcohol's actually so simple to make that you can make it by accident.
在家里制作简单的酒精饮料也很容易。基本上，如果不禁食物，就不能禁酒，而阻止烟草进口和烘烤要简单得多。酒精其实很容易制造，以至于你可能会偶然地制造出它。
During Prohibition in the States, kits were sold with specific instructions on what to never do, as alcohol may be produced...
在美国禁酒令期间，出售的工具包上有具体的说明禁止什么不能做，这样做了就会生产出酒精……
This - banning alcohol ignores how prent yeast is as an organism, and how many things it will make ethanol from. Banning alcohol is just not possible, because it is so incredibly easy to create from foodstuffs.
禁酒忽略了酵母作为一种微生物是有多普遍，它可以从多少东西中产生乙醇。禁酒是不可能的，因为从食物中制造酒精太容易了。
Tbf you can also enjoy tobacco for its taste, many people smoke cigars for that reason. Your risk of cancer or other illness from cigars is probably higher than from alcohol though.
老实说，你也可以享受烟草的味道，很多人因此抽雪茄。不过，你患癌症或其他疾病的风险可能比酒精更高。
Indeed. I go through a pack of mini cigars about once a year.
This won't work anyway. Relatives I know who smoke just buy their fags off a Polish guy who brings them over from Poland.
In fact it's already cheaper to get a flight to another country and stock up on duty free cigs than it is to buy them in the shops here. A £10 pack of cigarette here is about £2.50 in Bulgaria, a saving of £75 if using the max duty free allowance. Can get a return flight to Sofia for £20. £55 saving and a day out in Bulgaria.
的确。我大约每年抽一包迷你雪茄。
我抽烟的亲戚都是从一个波兰人那里买的，而他的烟是从波兰带来的。
事实上，坐飞机去另一个国家买免税烟已经比在这里的商店里买便宜了。在保加利亚，一包10英镑的香烟大约卖2.5英镑，如果使用最大免税额，可以节省75英镑。20英镑就可以买到索菲亚的往返机票。省下55英镑去保加利亚玩一天。
Yup. Alcohol is incredibly easy and cheap to produce. Tobacco has to be grown and grown in warmer climes than ours.
是的。酒的生产非常简单便宜。烟草必须在比我们更温暖的气候中种植。
That’s probably easy to say if you drink but don’t smoke. Someone who smokes but doesn’t drink would probably say something like: “I don’t smoke in public, and cigarettes never made me fight in the street or smash up a foreign town”
如果你喝酒但不吸烟，你可能很容易说出来。吸烟但不喝酒的人可能会说：“我不在公共场合吸烟，香烟也不会让我在街上打架或砸烂外国的小镇。”
Alcohol is found in every human society. There's an argument that it was essential to develop agriculture. We are an alcoholic species, I doubt we can be rid of it.
酒精存在于每个人类社会中。有一种观点认为酒对发展农业至关重要。我们是一个嗜酒的物种，我怀疑我们能否摆脱它。
Ultimately because there aren’t that many smokers, and we all know how harmful it is.
If a government tried to get rid of alcohol, they’d be out in a flash. Alcohol is just much more popular and ingrained in our culture.
归根结底是因为吸烟者没那么多，而且我们都知道它的危害性。
如果一个政府试图禁酒，他们很快就会完蛋。酒精在我们的文化中更加普遍和根深蒂固。
Secondary impact of drinking is huge. It is correlated with a lot of casual violence, domestic abuse, etc.
饮酒的间接影响是巨大的。它与许多偶然的暴力、家庭虐待等相关。
Does personal liberty count for nothing anymore?
个人自由不再重要了吗？
banning alcohol would create a meteoric societal shift. In my twenties I was down the pub with mates every week. Spending that much time chatting & enjoying ourselves was a staple of my late teens/early twenties & carried me through everything. Where would we hang out without alcohol? cafes?
Alcohol is also much easier to moderate. Pretty much every adult I know is content drinking a bit on Fri/Sat and nothing else. I can't think of a single smoker friend who isn't ploughing through a pack a day. 10 years of a pack or more a day is going to do SO much more damage than a few drinks twice a week. It's not even close.
禁酒会造成社会剧烈变化。在我二十几岁的时候，我每周都和朋友们去酒吧。花时间聊天和享受是我那些年的一个主要习惯，这让我度过了一切。如果没有酒，我们会在哪里消磨时间？咖啡馆？
酒也更容易控制。我认识的每个成年人都满足于在周末喝一点酒，没别的。我想不出有哪个吸烟的朋友不每天抽一包烟。10年来每天一包或更多烟比一周喝两次酒的伤害大得多。两者根本没法比。
I think its worth considering the quality of this source. ASH is an organisation that is clearly anti smoking. The largest part of their 'cost to society' comes from the loss of productivity.
However, they mostly calculate this loss of productivity by saying "Smokers are more likely to be unemployed". Implying that somehow, directly as a result of smoking, people across all age ranges are more likely to be unemployed. They don't consider the possibility that unemployed people are more likely to smoke, as a result of being unemployed (perhaps financial related anxiety). People from poorer backgrounds smoke more than those from richer backgrounds in the UK. People from poorer backgrounds are more likely to be unemployed.
Basically, while there is definitely a wider cost to society, this source is probably exaggerating the figure. Within their report, they state that 6.9 billion is lost due to smokers not working (which can possibly be attributed to ill health associated with smoking), but 7.2 billion is lost due to smokers having lower paying jobs. I find it unlikely in most cases that being a smoker is what is making people have lower income, rather than lower income resulting in more smokers.
我认为这个消息来源的质量值得考虑。ASH（英国吸烟与健康行动组织）是一个明确反对吸烟的组织。他们所说的“社会成本” 最大部分来自生产力的损失。
然而，他们大多是通过说“吸烟者更有可能失业”来计算生产力损失的。它的意思是，由于吸烟，各个年龄段的人更有可能失业。他们没有考虑到失业的人很有可能吸烟，这是失业导致的（可能是与经济相关的焦虑）。在英国，贫穷家庭的人比富裕家庭的人吸烟更多。而且贫穷的人更容易失业。
基本上，虽然吸烟肯定会带来广泛的社会成本，但这个消息来源可能夸大了这个数字。在他们的报告中，他们表示吸烟者不工作导致69亿的损失，而吸烟者从事低薪工作导致72亿损失。我发现，在大多数情况下，不太可能是吸烟导致人们收入低下，反而是收入低下导致更多吸烟者。
Yea I read “lost productivity” and knew it’d be a whole load of waffle. It’s very disingenuous to weigh “lost productivity”, something that isn’t really measurable or definitive, with something as tangible as tax earned which we have proper data to show for.
是的，我看到“生产力损失”，就知道是胡扯。像税收这样有形的东西，我们有适当的数据可以证明，但要衡量“生产力损失”这种无法真正衡量或确定的东西是非常虚伪的。
I hate this argument. How much productivity is lost by gaming, and consumption of TV shows and films, by drinking, by single parenthood, by browsing Reddit? Are we good to ban all those too?
People don't live for their boss, and they don't live to pay taxes.
我讨厌“生产力损失”这个论点。玩游戏、看电视和电影、喝酒、单身父母、浏览Reddit会损失多少生产力？我们也应该禁止这些吗？
人不是为老板而活，也不是为了交税而活。
Imagine how much more productivity we'd have if we banned all breaks!
想象一下，如果我们禁止休息，我们的生产力会增加多少！
Also it's my productivity. If I want to waste it smoking then that's my choice, for the same reason that people are allowed to do a job they enjoy as opposed to whatever would create the most economic activity. I completely get the healthcare aspect, but to analyse it properly you have to also factor reduced state pension income and any other care fees.
就算损失也是我的生产力。如果我想把它浪费在吸烟上，那也是我的选择，因为同样的原因，人们可以做他们喜欢的工作，而不是做能创造最大经济的工作。我完全理解医疗方面的问题，但要正确分析它，还必须考虑国家养老金收入和其他护理费用的减少。
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That really isn’t true though. That study examines that supposed lost time of people who go on smoke breaks. It’s ridiculous to assume that if someone were working instead of taking a 10 min smoke break they would be contributing more to the economy. In reality, they’d just be sat twiddling their thumbs or wasting time on reddit like all of us non-smokers already do
这确实不是真的。这项研究调查了人们吸烟休息可能损失的时间，假设一个人在工作而不是休息10分钟去吸烟，那么他们会为经济做出更大贡献，这太荒谬了。事实上，他们就像我们所有不吸烟的人一样，就是在那里玩手机或把时间浪费在reddit上而已。
Lung cancer is a very, very painful way to die young. It's also very expensive both for the smoker and the NHS.
肺癌是一种非常非常痛苦的早亡方式。这对吸烟者和医保来说都很昂贵。
Because making things illegal stops people doing it and makes it safer for everyone. Right!?
因为把事情定为非法会阻止人们去做，也会让大家都更安全。对吧？
Well from a statistical point of view, yes that is the case purely because it makes it harder to obtain. Provided the law is enforced of course.
从统计学的角度来看，是的，这完全是因为它使它更难获得。当然，前提是法律得到执行。
Pretty much. It doesn't prevent the negative outcome 100% but it massively reduces it.
差不多。它不能100%防止负面结果，但能大大减少负面结果。
I'd rather live in a smokeless society, than one that relies on it for tax money.
我宁愿生活在一个无烟的社会，也不愿生活在一个靠它来交税的社会。
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We've all known for several years that smoking is highly dangerous to your health. So is driving a car, but the use of a car has a major advantage (for many people) and no government is going to ban all car driving.
1) If young people can be steered away from starting in the first place, that is a good thing.
2) What about the loss of taxes? Yes, big problem for the Government. Same with gambling legislation, and the transfer from petrol cars to electric. The Government will have to find otehr ways of raising the money to pay for the thsings that we want the Government to provide.
3) What about people who find loopholes? Well, yes, people will, but if you can eliminate 99% of the problem, and 1% find loopholes, it's still worth doing.
多年来，我们都知道吸烟对人的健康非常有害。开车也是如此，但对很多人来说，开车有一个大优势，也没有政府会禁车。
1、如果能从一开始就引导年轻人不吸烟，那是一件好事。
2、税收损失怎么办？是的，这对政府来说是个大问题。赌博立法和从汽油汽车到电动汽车的转变也是如此。政府必须找到其他筹集资金的方式，来填补我们希望政府为我们提供的东西。
3、那些发现漏洞的人怎么办？确实有这样的问题，但如果你能消除99%的问题，哪怕有1%的漏洞，这仍然是值得做的。
I hate when people use the argument that some people will get around a law. Arguing that if something isn't going to be 100% effective then you shouldn't even bother trying is such a ridiculous point of view.
我讨厌人们用有人会绕过法律的论点。认为如果不是100%有效，就不用费心去尝试，这种观点非常荒谬。
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I don't agree. I don't like smoking and obviously the harms are well known. But I think part of living in a free country like ours is the right to make those sort of lifestyle choices. Even if they're bad ones. So I don't personally think the government should be able to tell people, who are dults, if they can smoke or not.
我不同意。我不喜欢吸烟，它的危害是众所周知的。但我认为，生活在像我们这样的自由国家里，人们有权利选择生活方式的。即使它们是坏的。所以我个人认为，政府不应该告诉人们谁是成年人，可不可以吸烟。
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I don’t like the idea of phasing smoking out entirely. I occasionally enjoy a pipe or cigar to wind down and relax.
Pipe tobacco is around half the price of rolling tobacco, but I can’t see that lasting long if they’re planning to phase smoking out.
I hate cigarettes, they’re perfectly designed to be as addictive and harmful as possible. A pipe or cigar (at least larger ones) is rather hard to get addicted to in my experience, they’re also not designed to be inhaled and instead smoked for the flavour and relaxation. I was addicted to smoking cigarettes for years, couldn’t last an hour without thinking about smoking one. I can smoke my pipe once a week, often going longer and not have any addictive urges.
I also feel sadness for small British pipe tobacco blenders, the oldest I know being established in 1792. Their legacy will die with this new law.
I will say this: what next? Alcohol is arguably much more destructive to peoples lives than cigarettes. Alcohol is extremely carcinogenic and causes a lot of other health conditions. I’ve been to A&E several times in my life, and what were they absolutely packed with every time? Drunk people.
我不喜欢完全禁烟的主意。我偶尔喜欢抽烟斗或雪茄来放松一下。
烟斗烟的价格大约是卷烟的一半，但如果他们计划逐步禁烟，我认为这种情况不会持续太长了。
我讨厌卷烟，它们被完美地设计成尽可能让人上瘾和有害。根据我的经验，烟斗或雪茄（至少大支的）很难让人上瘾，它们也不是设计用来吸入的，而是为了味道和放松。我以前一直有烟瘾，一小时不抽烟都不行。现在我可以每周抽一次烟斗，抽的时间通常更长，而且没有任何上瘾的冲动。
我也为英国的小型烟斗机感到难过，我知道最古老的一家建于1792年。他们将随着这项新法律而消失。
我想说的是:接下来呢？可以说，酒对人们生活的破坏性比香烟大得多。酒精具有很强的致癌作用，还会导致许多健康问题。我去过几次急诊室，每次什么人最多？喝醉的人。
Sounds like a nice way to create a black market. Have people forgotten what happened when the yanks banned booze ?
听起来是创建黑市的好方法。难道大家忘了美国佬禁酒时发生了什么吗？
It's another ridiculous expansion of the nanny state. Let people buy what they want too, it's their choice end of the day. If they want to smoke cigarettes they should have the right too, same goes for eating junk food or anything else along the same lines.
这是保姆国家的又一次荒谬膨胀。别人想买什么就买什么，这是他们的选择。如果他们想吸烟，他们也应该有权利，吃垃圾食品或其他类似的东西也是如此。
If we truly live in a free society, then we should allow people to do things even it it's dangerous to the individual. The only exception would be if the activity causes harm to others. Sure, put restrictions on smoking as it creates second hand smoke that may harm people. But a total ban doesn't sit right with me. I'd be happy if they banned it around children and in public places, but nobody should stop somebody from enjoying a ciggy in their own home if they want to.
We let people play dangerous sports, we let people drink, we let people eat whatever junk food they want. All of these activities can lead to injuries and disease putting strain on the NHS and social services, but we wouldn't dream of banning them.
如果我们真的生活在一个自由的社会，那么我们应该允许人们做一些哪怕对自己有害的事情。唯一的例外是如果这种活动会对他人造成伤害。当然，吸烟要限制，因为吸烟会产生二手烟，可能会伤害人。但是我不同意全面禁止。如果禁止在儿童周围和公共场所吸烟，我会很高兴，但如果有人想在家里吸烟，那么谁都不应该阻止他们。
我们允许人们进行危险的运动，我们让人们喝酒，我们让人们吃他们想吃的垃圾食品。这些活动都可能导致伤害和疾病，给社保和社会服务带来压力，但我们不会梦想着禁止它们。
I think its a good idea, it doesn't punish those that already smoke as they can continue as long as they want but it will hopefully stop people from starting to smoke which is a good thing.
我认为这是一个好主意，它不会惩罚那些已经吸烟的人，他们可以想吸多久就吸多久，但它有可能阻止人们开始吸烟，这是一件好事。
A smoking ban doesn't do anything to stop people smoking, it will just stop them buying (legal ones)
It's perfectly legal to grow your own tobacco in the UK. As long as you don't sell any there is no issue.
禁烟并不能阻止人们吸烟，它只能阻止人们购买(合法的)香烟。
在英国，种植自己的烟草是完全合法的。只要你不卖，就没有问题。
I’m against bans in almost every case. As long as the education is there, it’s up to people whether they want to smoke or not, I’m not their mum.
我反对禁令。只要有教育，想不想抽烟就是个人的事，我不是他们的妈妈。