拿破仑是意大利人还是法国人？
Was Napoleon Italian French?
译文简介
拿破仑是一个意大利人，不过也是一个法国公民。
正文翻译
Was Napoleon Italian French?
拿破仑是意大利人还是法国人？
拿破仑是意大利人还是法国人？
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, knows English
Napoleon was an ethnic Italian but a French citizen. His first language was Italian, together with the local Corsican dialect, and he never managed to speak French without an accent.
Napoleon was born few months after Corsica became French. Official language in Corsica was Italian (until 1859), and his baptism certificate was in that language, which was also the language of his early education. He first started to learn French as second language at the age of 9. Reportedly, his mother (Letizia Ramolino), coming from a family of anti-French feelings, always refused to learn and speak French.
Having said that, Napoleon made all his career in France and for France. It would be impossible not to regard him as a French historical figure.
Napoleon as king of Italy, wearing the Corona Ferrea, ancient symbol of Italian kingdoms
拿破仑是一个意大利人，不过是一个法国公民。他的第一语言是意大利语，加上当地的科西嘉方言，他从来没有办法说没有口音的法语。
拿破仑是在科西嘉岛成为法国领土的几个月后出生的。科西嘉的官方语言是意大利语（直到1859年），他的洗礼证书是用这种语言写的，这也是他早期受教育时使用的语言。据称，他的母亲（莱蒂齐亚-拉莫利诺）来自一个反法家庭，一直拒绝学习和讲法语，他在9岁时才开始学习法语作为第二语言。
尽管如此，拿破仑的所有事业都是在法国和为法国而做的。不可能不把他看作是一个法国历史人物。
拿破仑作为意大利国王，佩戴着意大利王国的古老象征--铁王冠。
I don’t think that Corsicans would like you saying that Napoleon was Italian, While Corsica was ruled by Genoa for hundreds of years, the Corsican people feel they have a separate ethnic identity from both France and Italy, whether this means anything in the real world except pride is another story.
我不认为科西嘉人会喜欢你说拿破仑是意大利人，虽然科西嘉被热那亚统治了几百年，但科西嘉人觉得他们有一种独立于法国和意大利之外的民族身份，虽然这在现实世界中除了自豪感之外还意味着什么暂且不论。
Italy did not exist until the 186i when the kigdom of Itly was formed, therefore he was a Corsican, which was ruled by the Maritime Republic of Genoa a major commercial power in both the Mediterranean and the Black Sea, which existed from the 11th century to the 18th century. There were other Maritime Republics: Pisa, Venice and Amalfi, along with the lesser known Ragusa (now Dubrovnik), Gaeta, Ancona, and Noli.
意大利直到1861年才成立，因此他应该是由热那亚海上共和国统治的科西嘉人。热那亚是地中海和黑海的主要商业强国，从11世纪到18世纪一直存在。这段时间还存在其他的海上共和国。比如比萨、威尼斯和阿马尔菲，以及不太知名的拉古萨（现在的杜布罗夫尼克）、加埃塔、安科纳和诺利。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Italy did not exist as a unitarian State, however an Italian nation and language did exist, and people were calling themselves Italian. Napoleon established in 1805 a kingdom of Italy, crowned itself as king of Italy, and define himself as an Italian in the Memorial of Saint Helena
意大利虽然那时并不作为一个统一的国家而存在，但是意大利民族和语言确实存在，而且人们都自称是意大利人。拿破仑在1805年建立了一个意大利王国，自封为意大利国王，并在《圣赫勒拿岛纪念》中把自己定义为意大利人。
He felt so Italian that you can find 20 times more verified quotes from him where he explains how proud he was to be French and of the greatness of France, that he wanted to make even greater. The greatness of Italy (which again didn’t even existed at that time) was never his goal during his reign, he had greater things to think about.
In the introduction of his testament that he wrote in St Helena he clearly and specifically expresses his wish to be buried in Paris and his deep love for France and the French people. Not a word for Corsica. Not a word for Italy (that didn’t even exist at the time as nation). Extract of the introduction of Napoleon’s testament in Longwood:
Je désire que mes cendres reposent sur les bords de la Seine, au milieu de ce peuple français que j’ai tant aimé.
I wish that my remains rest on the banks of the Seine, in the middle of this French people that I have loved so much.
For Napoleon feeling Italian at that time (if he really ever said that) maybe meant having Italian traits due to his Corsican origins but not more. And from his perspective like for many French at that time, Italy was just considered as one of the various regions that were part of the French empire. That’s why Napoleon even after he became Emperor never bothered to give Corsica its independence (even though in his youth he had approached the independantist party) nor tried to re-unite Italy (on the coronary he kept it consciously divided to keep it weak, like other parts of the French empire). Not to speak of the various art treasures that he thoroughly plundered in Italy and sent to Paris to embellish the French capital, during his two Italian campaigns. So much for a devoted “Italian”.
Some anglo-saxons and of course some Italians have always loved to pretend that Napoleon was never French and felt more Corsican than French. Well feel free to believe that if you wish, but as a Frenchman and Parisian some of these nice statues I’m seeing everyday on the bridges of Paris or the presence of the casket of Napoleon in Paris tells me otherwise. Corsica and the Italian peninsula were just in his mind smaller regions part of France and the French Empire (like Corsica still is today).
他觉得自己太“意大利”了，以至于你可以从他身上找到20多条经过验证的引文，在这些引文中，他解释了自己作为法国人是多么的骄傲，以及法国的伟大，以及他想让法国变得更加伟大。意大利的伟大（在当时甚至还不存在）从来都不是他在位期间的目标，他有更远大的事情要考虑。
在他在圣赫勒拿岛写的遗嘱的引言中，他清楚而具体地表达了他希望葬在巴黎的愿望，以及他对法国和法国人民的深情。对科西嘉岛只字未提。对意大利也只字不提（当时甚至不存在这个国家）。拿破仑在龙坞的遗嘱介绍摘录：
（我希望我的遗体安放在塞纳河畔，安放在我深爱的法国人民中间。）
对拿破仑来说，在那个时候觉得自己是意大利人（如果他真的这么说过的话），也许意味着由于他的科西嘉血统而具有意大利人的特征，并不意味着更多的什么东西。从他的角度来看，就像当时的许多法国人一样，意大利只是被认为是属于法兰西帝国的各个地区中的一个。这就是为什么拿破仑即使在他成为皇帝后，也从未费心让科西嘉岛独立（即使在他年轻时曾接近科西嘉的独立党），也没有试图重新统一意大利（相反，他有意识地保持意大利的分裂，以保持它的软弱，就像对待法兰西帝国的其他地区一样）。更不用说他在两次意大利战役中在意大利彻底掠夺并送到巴黎点缀法国首都的各种艺术珍品了。一个忠实的 "意大利人"会这么做？
一些盎格鲁-撒克逊人，当然还有一些意大利人总是喜欢假装拿破仑从来不是法国人，他们觉得拿破仑是科西嘉人而不是法国人。好吧，如果你愿意的话，你可以自由地相信这一点，但是作为一个法国人和巴黎人，我每天在巴黎的桥梁上看到的一些漂亮的雕像或者拿破仑的棺材等这些巴黎的存在告诉我，情况并非如此。科西嘉和意大利半岛在他心目中只是法国和法兰西帝国的一个小区域（就像科西嘉今天仍然是）。
I agree, he is a French historical figure. Napoleon got all his glory and power in France, and France was his priority. However, he wanted as well to be crowned king of Italy (1805), not of Rome (in fact he was crowned in Milano). 'King of Rome' was the title created for the successors: first one would have been Napoleon Il. Napoleon was an ethnic Italian and in his memory talks as well about unifying Italy.
我同意，他是一个法国历史人物。拿破仑在法国获得了他所有的荣耀和权力，法国是他的优先选择。然而，他也想成为意大利的国王（1805年），而不是罗马的国王（事实上他是在米兰加冕的）。“罗马国王”是为继承人设立的头衔：第一个拥有这个头衔的是拿破仑二世。拿破仑是有意大利血统的人，在他的回忆录中也谈到了统一意大利的问题。
Prior to Napoleon there was a part of present day Italy under the control of the Holy Roman Empire, ruled by French and Germans and it was never was an independent state, this lasted until 1806 when Napoleon forced the abolition of this ancient political division. An Italian language and its many local derivations did exist. Napoleon spoke Corsican an Italian dialect, closely related to Tuscan. Like most other educated Corsicans, Napoleon learnt to speak Italian fluently. It was very common for Corsican families to speak Italian.
Since you quoted his memoirs in St. Helena I am surprised you did not see that he regarded French as his first language. When he was in exile on St. Helena, he told his Irish surgeon Barry O’Meara: It has been said…that I understand Italian better than French, which is not true. Though I speak Italian very fluently, it is not pure. Non parlo Toscana [I do not speak Tuscan], nor am I capable of writing a book in Italian, nor do I ever speak it in preference to French.
So, Napoleon regarded French as his first language as he had been the Emperor of the French.
在拿破仑之前，今天的意大利有一部分处于神圣罗马帝国的控制之下，由法国人和德国人统治，它从来就不是一个独立的国家，这种情况一直持续到1806年，拿破仑强迫废除了这个古老的政治划分。一种统一的意大利语言及其许多地方性的衍生语言确实存在。拿破仑讲科西嘉语，这是一种意大利方言，与托斯卡纳语密切相关。像其他大多数受过教育的科西嘉人一样，拿破仑学会了说流利的意大利语。科西嘉家庭讲意大利语是非常普遍的。
既然你引用了他在圣赫勒拿岛的回忆录，我很惊讶你没有看到他把法语视为他的第一语言。当他在圣赫勒拿岛流亡时，他告诉他的爱尔兰外科医生巴里-奥米拉：有人说......我对意大利语的理解比法语好，这不是真的。虽然我的意大利语说得非常流利，但它并不纯正。Non parlo Toscana[我不说托斯卡纳语]，我也没有能力用意大利语写书，我也从来把它视之优先于法语。
所以，拿破仑将法语视为他的第一语言，因为他曾是法国人的皇帝。
It is understandable that Napoleon regared French as his first language. He was the emperor of the French, he spent most of his life in France. That does not change the fact that his native language and his ethnicity was Italian.
拿破仑将法语作为他的第一语言是可以理解的。他是法国人的皇帝，他的大部分时间是在法国度过的。但这并不能改变他的母语和种族是意大利的事实。
Napolen did the military academy in France and his career was in the French army…
拿破仑在法国读过军校，他的职业是在法国军队中开启的...
An all his achievements are part of the history of France as well as those of his nephew Louis Napoleon. From the Bonapartes of France comes the French pretender of the Empire of the French.
Germany, as an independent nation did not come into being 1871, 10 years later than the unification of Italy into a kingdom under the house of Savoy.
Under the Roman Empire there was an Italy but also there was a Germania. The histories of these two great countries are very similar. There most certainly was a German language as well as all its dialects derived from it. The language has evolved into high and low German. The Holy Roman empire lands in the talian peninsula were in the upper part as the rest were ruled by the Papal States and the kingdom of the Two Sicilies, both with very old histories of their own. Napoleon occupied the Papal States and that is why he made his son King of Rome, not of Italy. Also the Grand Duchy of Tuscany was elevated in 1801 by treaty with Spain into the short lived kingdom of Etruria which was ruled by a Bourbon-Parma. By 1807 Napoleon dissolved it and made part of France. After his fall in 1814, Tuscany reverted to the Hapsburgs. In 1825 the kingdom of Lombardo-Venetia was created and given also to the Habsburgs. To compensate the Bourbons Parma, the duchy of Lucca was created in 1817, all lands in the Italian peninsula. Before that Venice, Genoa, Pisa and Amalfi were powerful Maritime Republics with their own historical records. They never called themselves Italians although they spoke Italian or the dialects derived from it.
他的所有成就和他的侄子路易-拿破仑的成就一样，都是法国历史的一部分。法国的波拿巴家族从来都是法国人帝国高位的觊觎者。
德国作为一个独立的国家在1871年才出现，比意大利在萨沃伊家族的领导下统一成一个王国还晚了10年。
在罗马帝国时期，存在过一个意大利，也有过一个日耳曼尼亚。这两个伟大国家的历史非常相似。可以肯定的是，当时存在一种统一使用的日耳曼语以及由其衍生的所有方言。这种语言现在已经演变成了高地德语和低地德语。神圣罗马帝国在意大利半岛的土地位于上部，其余部分由教皇国和两西西里王国统治，两者都有自己非常古老的历史。拿破仑占领了教皇国，这就是为什么他让他的儿子成为罗马而不是意大利的国王。另外，托斯卡纳大公国在1801年通过与西班牙的条约被提升为短命的埃特鲁里亚王国，由波旁-帕尔马统治。1807年，拿破仑将其解散，使其成为法国的一部分。1814年拿破仑下台后，托斯卡纳又回到了哈布斯堡家族的手中。1825年，伦巴第-威尼斯王国成立，也交给了哈布斯堡家族统治。为了对抗波旁王朝的帕尔马，1817年建立了卢卡公国，所有土地都在意大利半岛。在此之前，威尼斯、热那亚、比萨和阿马尔菲是强大的海上共和国，都有着自己的历史记录。他们从不称自己为意大利人，尽管他们说的是意大利语或由其衍生的方言。
“he never managed to speak French without an accent.” Actually, the French don’t consider local accents to be something Unfrench. The Corsican is just another well-known local French accent.
"他从来没有办法说没有口音的法语。" 实际上，法国人并不认为带着地方口音就不是法语了。科西嘉人是另一种著名的法国地方口音。
Maybe today Corsican is not considered unfrench, but for sure the situation was different 1790, and in fact he was mocked for his accent.
也许今天的科西嘉人不再被认为是不懂法语了，但可以肯定的是，1790年的情况是不同的，事实上，他的口音也确实被嘲笑了。
Italian pretty much with family from Genoa, but at the at time it would be Genoese.
意大利有很多来自热那亚的家庭，但在那个时间点上，应该算是热那亚人。
Napoleon called himself sometimes Corsican, Italian, Tuscan…never Genoese.
拿破仑有时会称自己为科西嘉人、意大利人、托斯卡纳人......但从来没有自称为热那亚人。
Good info, but curious if he was an Italian and French king as you mention he was all for France and yet the photo states he was an Italian king as well…I guess I need to study it a bit
很好的信息，但我很好奇他到底是意大利国王还是法国国王，因为你提到他所作所为都是为了法国，但照片上却说他也是一个意大利国王......我想我需要研究一下。
Napoleons was Emperor of the French AND king of Italy. Nice that you recommend others to study…
拿破仑是法国皇帝和意大利国王。很高兴你推荐其他人也学习一下...
他于1804年在巴黎圣母院加冕为法国皇帝，并于1805年在米兰大教堂加冕为意大利国王，此前他于1800年通过马伦戈战役重新征服了北意大利。在1814年退位之前，他既是法国的皇帝，也是意大利的国王。
Try to tell corsicans that they are italians…..or french ( as they officialy are since 1768), by the way.
They are CORSICAN a very old and specific culture different from all continental cultures .
试着告诉科西嘉人他们是意大利人.....或者是法国人（从1768年起的官方身份）看看。
他们只是“科西嘉人”，是一种非常古老和特殊的文化，与所有大陆文化都不同。
, knows Italian
Napoleon was born in France and was a French citizen. He was also a Corsican, and Corsicans are not Italians. Corsica has never been Italian, it became French before Italy existed.
We Sardinians are Italian citizens the same way that Corsican are French citizens, our relationships with the mainland are the same (with the difference that Corsicans are prouder and tougher than Sardinians and protest much more).
But Napoleon didn’t want to be Corsican, he just wanted to be French. I don’t think there has ever been anyone more French than him. The origin of his familu has zero relevance in all this.
拿破仑出生在法国，是一个法国公民。他也是科西嘉人，而科西嘉人不是意大利人。科西嘉岛从来都不是意大利的，它在意大利存在之前就成为了法国的。
我们撒丁岛人是意大利公民，就像科西嘉人是法国公民一样，我们与大陆的关系是一样的（不同的是，科西嘉人比撒丁岛人更骄傲、更强硬，抗议得更多）。
但拿破仑并不想成为科西嘉人，他只想成为法国人。我认为从来没有人比他更像法国人。他的家庭出身与这一切毫无关系。
Napoleon was born in Corse in the same year that Corse was sold from the Republic of Genoa (Italy) to France. His family was original from Tuscany and Liguria, and considered themselves Italian. They spoke Italian and Corse dialect. Napoleon studied at military colleges in France but was never proficient in French. Napoleon was a French citizen of Italian ancestry. Many contemporary of his and detractors, including the great French writer Victor Hugo, used to call him “l’ Italien”, with derogatory intent.
拿破仑出生在科西嘉，就在科西嘉从热那亚共和国（意大利）卖给法国的那一年。他的家庭原来来自托斯卡纳和利古里亚，并认为自己是意大利人。他们讲意大利语和科西嘉方言。拿破仑在法国的军事学院学习，但从未精通过法语。拿破仑是一个有着意大利血统的法国公民。他的许多同代人和诋毁者，包括伟大的法国作家维克多-雨果，都习惯于称他为 "l' Italien"，有贬低的意思。
, History enthusiast
Napoleon was born in Corsica, a rebellious province that used to be a part of the republic of Genoa that was way more connected with Italy than it was with France. Napoleon himself could trace his lineage to Italian mercenarries like those of Sforza. Napoleon, when he attended the military academy in France, recieved constant bullying for his corsican identity, especially with the spelling of his name (He did not say “Napoleon”, but “Napoleone”). This pushed Napoleons corsican nationalism even further, and Paolo (A Corsican hero and rebel leader) was a hero and idol of his.
It cannot be exactly pin-pointed when did Napoleon assimilate into French culture, but the breaking point was likely when a dispute broke out between the Bonaparte family and Paolo and his followers during the French revolution. The cause of this dispute was likely when Napoleons brother, Joseph reported Paolo to the convent for treason. After that, the Bonapartes were forced to depart for France.
So Napoleon was Italian when he was young, and French after that.
Italian and French are all cultures, we are all genetically connected and mixed. Italian is an culture, just like French is culture, and it can be adopted and rejected by human will. They are not genetic groups.
拿破仑出生在科西嘉岛，这是一个反叛的省份，曾经是热那亚共和国的一部分，与意大利的关系比与法国的关系更密切。拿破仑本人的血统可以追溯到像斯福尔扎那样的意大利雇佣军。拿破仑在法国上军事学院时，曾因他的科西嘉人身份而不断受到欺负，尤其是他的名字的拼写（他不说"Napoleon"，而是说"Napoleone"）。这进一步推动了拿破仑的科西嘉民族主义，而保罗（科西嘉英雄和叛军领袖）是他的英雄和偶像。
拿破仑是何时被法国文化同化的并不确切，但突破点可能是在法国大革命期间波拿巴家族与保罗及其追随者之间爆发的一场争端。争端的起因可能是拿破仑的哥哥约瑟夫向修道院举报了保罗的叛国行为。此后，波拿巴家族被迫前往法国。
所以拿破仑年轻时是意大利人，之后是法国人。
意大利人和法国人都是一种文化，我们在基因上都有联系，都是混血儿。意大利语是一种文化，就像法语是文化一样，它可以被人的意志所采纳和拒绝。它们不是遗传群体。
, French and Parisian, I'm afraid...
Why do French people think that Napoleon wasn’t Italian?
Quite simply because Napoléon Bonaparte was not Italian.
Napoléon Bonaparte was born on August 15, 1769 in Ajaccio on the island of Corsica.
A year before, on May 15 1768, by the treaty of Versailles, Genoa had provisionally ceded the administration of Corsica (which in practice it no longer controlled) to France. Louis XV, who purposely refused to recognize the Corsican Republic of Pascal Paoli as legitimate, sent his army to take possession of the island.
The treaty was originally only a "conservation" treaty. The Republic of Genoa did not give up its rights of sovereignty over Corsica to France, which was only responsible for administering and pacifying the island.
But as Voltaire said : "By this treaty, the kingdom of Corsica was not absolutely given to the king of France, but it was supposed to belong to him, with the power reserved for the Republic to re-enter this sovereignty by reimbursing the king for the immense expenses he had made in favor of the Republic. It was, indeed, to cede Corsica forever, for it was not probable that the Genoese would be in a condition to redeem it; and it was still less probable that, having redeemed it, they could preserve it against the Corsicans, who had sworn to die rather than live under the yoke of Genoa. "
So, from the French legal point of view, NB was born in French territory.
He was, therefore, born French and not Italian.
Moreover, he would have been Genoese and not Italian, Italy having not yet existed.
To top it all, Napoléon chose to be French after having supported the Corsican revolution. Are you more qualified than him to dispute the fact?
问：为什么法国人认为拿破仑不是意大利人？
很简单，因为拿破仑-波拿巴不是意大利人。
拿破仑-波拿巴于1769年8月15日出生在科西嘉岛的阿雅克肖。
一年前，即1768年5月15日，根据凡尔赛条约，热那亚将科西嘉岛的管理权（实际上它已不再控制）暂时割让给法国。路易十五故意拒绝承认帕斯卡尔-保利的科西嘉共和国是合法的，他派军队占领了该岛。
该条约最初只是一个"保护"条约。热那亚共和国并没有将其对科西嘉岛的主权权利交给法国，法国只负责管理和安抚该岛。
但正如伏尔泰所言："通过这个条约，科西嘉王国并没有绝对地交给法国国王，但它被认为是属于法国国王的，虽然热那亚共和国保留了通过偿还法国国王为共和国付出的巨额费用来重新获得科西嘉主权的权力。但这实际上的确是永远割让了科西嘉岛，因为热那亚人不可能有条件赎回它；而且更不可能的是，他们在赎回了科西嘉岛之后，还能通过对抗科西嘉人来保留它，因为科西嘉人已经发誓宁死也不会生活在热那亚的枷锁之下。"
因此，从法国的法律角度来看，拿破仑是在法国领土上出生的。
也就是说，他出生在法国而不是意大利。
此外，他本来是热那亚人，而不是意大利人，因为意大利当时还没有存在。
最重要的是，拿破仑在支持科西嘉革命后选择成为法国人。你比他更有资格质疑这一事实吗？
He is a Italian ethically and French Nationality. Depending on how you want to look at it, he is both. And Genovese is a italian culture. Genoa was a italian state due to being on italy geographically and being culturally similar to the other italian states.
他在血统上是意大利人，在国籍上是法国人。取决于你如何看待它，他两者都是。而热那亚是意大利文化。热那亚是一个意大利国家，因为它在地理上位于意大利，在文化上与其他意大利国家相似。
There's probably a splendid argument to be had why corsicans would be ‘ethnically Italian’ instead of Corsican.
为什么科西嘉人是"意大利人"而不是科西嘉人，这里面又得好好说道一番。
To some extent I agree but, let us not forget that Napoleon was of Italian or to be politically correct, was of kingdom of Genova. No matter how you stir this salad, it’s always a salad. Napoleon did not have a drop of French blood in him. It doesn’t matter who controls the territory, nationality or race doesn’t change. So to be correct in every sense, Napoleon was Italian.
在某种程度上我同意，但是，我们不要忘记，拿破仑是意大利人，或者说政治上正确一点，是热那亚王国的人。无论你如何搅拌这道沙拉，它始终是一道沙拉。拿破仑身上没有一滴法国人的血。谁控制领土并不重要，国籍或种族不会改变。因此，从各种意义上说，拿破仑是意大利人。
, Common or Garden Armchair Historian
This question is so full of misunderstandings I don’t even know where to begin.
Napoleon was Corsican. Even today, Corsicans won’t describe themselves as “ethnically Italian” or “ethnically French”. They’re Corsicans. It’s like asking whether the Irish are ethnically English or Scottish, only about 100 times worse…
…because at the time, there was no concept of “Italian” except the purely geographical. Italy wouldn’t exist until 1861, at which time the newly appointed Senator Massimo d’Azeglio famously said “We have made Italy. Now we must make Italians.” It took until after WWI before most Italians considered themselves Italian; until the advent of TV, most didn’t even speak Italian but one of the regional languages.
And similarly, only 10% of all French in Napoleon’s day even spoke French. About 1/3 spoke Occitan, a language you could describe as halfway between French and Spanish. Most people in Bretagne were monolingual in Breton, a Celtic language related to Irish and Scottish Gaelic.
You’re trying to analyse a person born in the 18th century using 21st century borders, assuming that he subscribed to an ideology that only came into existence some 50 years after he died. It’s like asking what he felt about the Kardashians.
这个问题充满了误解，我甚至不知道从何说起。
拿破仑是科西嘉人。即使在今天，科西嘉人也不会把自己描述为"意大利人种"或"法国人种"。他们是科西嘉人。这就像问爱尔兰人是英国人还是苏格兰人一样，甚至比这糟糕100倍......
...因为在当时，除了纯粹的地理概念，没有"意大利"的概念。意大利直到1861年才存在，当时新任命的参议员阿泽利奥马西莫说过一句著名的话："我们已经创造了意大利。现在我们必须创造意大利人"。直到一战后，大多数意大利人才认为自己是意大利人；在电视出现之前，大多数人甚至不说意大利语，只说其中一种地区性语言。
同样，在拿破仑时代，所有法国人中甚至只有10%的人说法语。大约1/3的人讲奥克西坦语，这种语言你可以说是介于法语和西班牙语之间。布列塔尼地区的大多数人都只说布列塔尼语，这是一种与爱尔兰和苏格兰盖尔语有关的凯尔特语言。
你试图用21世纪的边界来分析一个生于18世纪的人，假设他赞同一种在他死后50年才出现的意识形态。这就像问他对卡戴珊姐妹的感受一样。
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