QA问答：非洲贫穷是因为腐败或者腐败是因为贫穷？
Is Africa poor because it is corrupt or corrupt because it is poor?
译文简介
非洲拥有巨量的财富，无论是土地、水、钻石、石油、生物多样性，还是愿意努力工作的人民；问题不在于缺乏资源，而在于部分人锦衣玉食。和其他地方一样，问题是大部分财富都流向了极少数人。
正文翻译
回答一：
Pascal Morimacil, Honorary Economics & International Economics, Diploma Mills (2026)
Africa has IMMENSE amounts of wealth, be it land, water, diamonds, oil, biodiversity, people willing to work hard, etc.However, the wealth isn’t used to help the average person.Instead, those in power use it to benefit themselves.Tribal chiefs, warlords, multinational corporations, cops, politicians, oligarchs, etc.And some people in Africa did get very very rich, and very powerful.The issue isn’t the lack of resources, and there certainly are people swimming in luxury.The issue, just like elsewhere, is that most of the wealth goes to a tiny minority.Some have swimming pools while others don’t have clean drinking water.
非洲拥有巨量的财富，无论是土地、水、钻石、石油、生物多样性，还是愿意努力工作的人民，等等。
Africa has IMMENSE amounts of wealth, be it land, water, diamonds, oil, biodiversity, people willing to work hard, etc.However, the wealth isn’t used to help the average person.Instead, those in power use it to benefit themselves.Tribal chiefs, warlords, multinational corporations, cops, politicians, oligarchs, etc.And some people in Africa did get very very rich, and very powerful.The issue isn’t the lack of resources, and there certainly are people swimming in luxury.The issue, just like elsewhere, is that most of the wealth goes to a tiny minority.Some have swimming pools while others don’t have clean drinking water.
非洲拥有巨量的财富，无论是土地、水、钻石、石油、生物多样性，还是愿意努力工作的人民，等等。
然而，这些财富并不是用来帮助普通人的；相反，当权者利用这些为自己谋利。部落首领、军阀、跨国公司、警察、政客、寡头，等等。非洲的一些人变得非常富有，非常有实力。问题不在于缺乏资源，而在于部分人锦衣玉食。和其他地方一样，问题是大部分财富都流向了极少数人。
一些有游泳池，而另一些没有干净的饮用水。
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The biggest drag on any society is competency of the government.African states are notorious for corrupt politicians part of the reason is because due to the vast natural wealth of Africa which the West needs, the West helps corrupt politicians win elections to help keep the economies of African country underdeveloped so the countries have no choice but sell their natural resources unprocessed and at a undervalued price, whilst the fat cats swim in gold and silver.Just to clarify the African politicians help keep African economy underdeveloped because they tend to steal the wealth of the country they have been elected to govern or award contract to associates based on a bribe.
对任何社会来说，（发展的）最大的阻力就是政府的能力。非洲国家因政客腐败而臭名昭著，部分原因是由于非洲丰富的自然财富，这是西方国家需要的，西方国家帮助非洲国家腐败的政客赢得选举，让非洲国家一直保持经济不发达状态，所以这些国家别无选择，只能以被低估的价格出售未经加工的自然资源，而有钱有势的人则享受锦衣玉食。澄清一下，非洲政客的助纣为虐导致非洲经济不发达，因为他们倾向于窃取他们治理的国家的财富，或者接受贿赂将合同授予合作伙伴。
This is further compounded by a system where the resources either belong to some politician, or their family, or some wealthy asshole owner (homegrown or foreign), who is happy to fill his own pockets at the expense of everyone else.What else can you expect from a system where everyone in power is encouraged to maximize their own personal short term profits at the expense of everyone else?
在这种体制下，这种情况会进一步加剧，资源要么属于某个政客，要么属于他们的家族，要么属于某个富有的混蛋所有者（本土的或外国的），这些人乐于以牺牲其他人的利益为代价填满自己的口袋。在这样一个系统中，每个掌权者都被鼓励以牺牲其他人的利益为代价来最大化自己的短期利益，你还能期望什么呢？
Well imagine a third world country dictator, not necessarily in Africa. And then a powerful western country approached you. Here it is:CIA’s failed attempt to bribe Lee Kuan Yew among newly released documents https://mothership.sg/2017/02/cias-failed-attempt-to-bribe-lee-kuan-yew-among-newly-released-documents/
Of course the Singaporean leader rejected it. The cases are different in Indonesia (Soeharto), the Philippines (Marcos), and South Vietnam (Diem). Some wealthy and powerful people in banana republics are bandits, and of course some are not. Not “everyone has a price".There is a strong revisionism in the US today, I saw one Quora answer saying Mobutu Sese Seko being backed by USSR. They love to blame overseas dictators to the other party in their simpleton logic. But the reality doesn't care about their feelings or distorted historical knowledge apparently, because the world remembers.U.S. Must Cut Ties to MobutuFor too long, the United States has heeded a favorite slogan of Zairian President Mobutu Sese Seko: "Without me, there will be chaos."
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-03-16-op-38823-story.html
Tribalism? Of course it does exist everywhere, but Africa gets blamed very easily for that.I still remember how US giant corporations operate in two resource-rich region in Indonesia, one mining copper and the other extracting natural gas. Of course, those two are some of the most troublesome regions, rebels, in-fightings, and of course “tribal" in nature too.
想象一个第三世界国家的独裁者，不一定是在非洲。然后一个强大的西方国家来接近你。下面就是一个例子：新公布的中情局企图贿赂李光耀失败的文件。（链接）新加坡领导人当然拒绝了。印度尼西亚（苏哈托）、菲律宾（马科斯）和南越（吴廷恩）的情况则有所不同。在香蕉共和国，有些有钱有势的人是强盗，当然也有些不是，并不是“每个人都有合适的价格”。
今天美国有一种强大的修正主义，我看到一个Quora回答说蒙博托·塞塞·塞科受到了苏联的支持。他们喜欢用自己愚蠢的逻辑把海外独裁者归咎于另一方，但现实显然不会在意他们的感受，也不会歪曲历史常识，因为整个世界都会记得。美国必须切断与蒙博托的联系，长期以来，美国一直听从刚果民主共和国总统Mobutu Sese Seko（注：1965-1997在任，1997年被推翻）最喜欢的一句口号:“没有我，就会有混乱。”（链接）
（这是因为非洲存在）部落文化吗？当然，部落文化确实存在于所有地方，但非洲很容易因此而受到指责。我还记得美国大型企业在印尼两个资源丰富的地区是如何运作的，一个开采铜，另一个开采天然气。当然，这两个地区是最麻烦的地区，有叛乱、内讧，当然在本质上也是“部落”。
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There are several countries in Africa where they don’t have any trade agreements or any dealings with the US and they are still poor. Also, there are some pretty well run (relatively) governments in north Africa, but they are middle eastern and not African ethnically.I honestly can not think of a single ethnically African place that has done well in modern times. Does anyone have an example of a successful majority sub-saharan African country/state/city in modern times?
非洲有几个国家和美国没有任何贸易协议或交易，他们仍然很穷。此外，在北非也有一些管理良好（相对而言）的政府，但他们是中东人，而不是非洲人。老实说，我想不出一个非洲单一民族在现代发展得很好的地方。有没有人能举出一个撒哈拉以南的非洲国家/城市在现代成功的例子？
Maybe you’ve forgotten the fact that it’s not only the US that does that. France, UK, and Belgium also do have their share in the scramble for resources, either directly or via proxies. France has backed over 22 coups in West Africa in order to install governments that align with French interests, not the interests of the locals. The UK has propped oligarchies in East Africa that have helped It plunder resources of a couple of countries, all while ensuring that competent people never rise to power.
Oh! And you said you can’t think of any place in sub-Sahara that’s run successfully? You forgot Congo under Lumumba and Burkina Faso under Sankara? Isn’t it the same West (US and France to be exact) that has sold you BS via the corporate media of how sub-Saharan Africans can never run an effective government, that engineered the assassinations of these two visionary leaders? Then went ahead and installed brutal dictators (Mobutu and Blaise Compaore) who they propped up for over 3 decades.
也许你已经忘记了这样做的不仅仅是美国，法国、英国和比利时也在争夺资源，无论是直接争夺还是通过代理人争夺。法国已经在西非支持了22次政变，目的是为了建立符合法国利益而不是当地人民利益的政府。英国支持东非的寡头政治，这些寡头帮助英国掠夺了几个国家的资源，同时确保有能力的人永远不会掌权。
哦？你说你想不出撒哈拉以南有哪个地方治理得很成功？你忘了卢蒙巴统治下的刚果和商卡拉统治下的布基纳法索吗？难道不是同一个西方国家（准确地说是美国和法国）通过企业媒体向你兜售撒哈拉以南的非洲人永远无法运作一个有效的政府的胡说八道，并策划了对这两位有远见的领导人的暗杀吗？然后他们继续支持残暴的独裁者（蒙博托和布莱斯·孔波雷）超过30年。
Even currently, the US and EU are supporting the TPLF rebels in Ethiopia, who are destabilizing that country because the US wants a puppet regime, that can do its bidding, not an independent government that actually serves the people it was elected to serve. It did the same before with a TPLF regime for 27 yrs (1991–2018), during which time the brutal US-backed dictatorship, took marching orders from Washington.
Then to prove to you that this is not limited to sub-Sahara, it seems you’ve forgotten the failed foreign policy of regime change in Libya that was spearheaded by the US, France, and the UK in 2011, which ended up destroying a once-prosperous country. Reason? Gaddafi wasn’t a puppet of the West and had built a prosperous country all while blocking western corporations from looting the vast oil wealth of Libya like they’re currently doing. He even wanted to introduce a single African currency backed by gold, something that didn’t go well with the western imperialists, prompting them to act quickly to help “save” Libya from “dictatorship”.
This pattern has been repeated over and over again, over a very long period of time that you don’t need to be a rocket scientist to realize that the same people feeding you crap via corporate media, which just doubles up as the mouth-piece of Western corporations, are actually the same people responsible for the socio-political mess in most of those areas.
在他们在位的整个期间，全是对资源肆无忌惮地抢劫和掠夺的，而那些企业媒体让你认为“没有一个非洲单一民族在现代发展得很好”，你接受并内化了这一看法，而没有做任何批判性的思考，从不同的角度来看待非洲。这几乎是撒哈拉以南所有国家面临的情况。即使是现在，美国和欧盟也在支持埃塞俄比亚的提格雷人民解放阵线的叛军，他们正在破坏这个国家的稳定。因为美国想要一个傀儡政权，能够听从美国的命令，而不是一个选举出来的真正为人民服务的独立的政府。
为了向你证明这并不局限于撒哈拉以南地区，你似乎忘记了2011年，美国、法国和英国率先在利比亚推行的失败的政权更迭的外交政策，这最终摧毁了一个曾经繁荣的国家。原因呢？卡扎菲不是西方的傀儡，他建立了一个繁荣的国家，同时阻止西方公司像他们现在做的那样掠夺利比亚巨大的石油财富，他甚至想要引入一种以黄金为后盾的单一非洲货币。
这一想法与西方帝国主义格格不入，促使他们迅速采取行动，帮助“拯救”利比亚脱离“独裁统治”。这种模式在很长一段时间里不断重复，你不必是火箭科学家就能意识到，同样的人通过企业媒体给你提供垃圾信息，这些媒体同时也是西方企业的代言人，实际上，正是这些人造成了这些地区的社会的政治混乱。
American here. You are correct. The people that fight you want to ignore the fact that much of poverty is pushed by paternalism, dependency on the west, liberalized trade, and the imbalance of power that was created via colonialism. There is a certain aid narrative that is pushed. For myself personally, I think that poverty should be defined on a household by household basis, since every family is unique in their challenges, and what poverty means for that family personally. Others may find my stance unrealistic but if was to attempt to tackle a one by one methodology how would you develop metrics for such an individualized approach? Especially if you want to empower communities, and focus on autonomy.
（原因是）美国在这里，你是正确的。那些与你辩论的人想要忽视这样一个事实：许多贫困是由家长式作风、对西方的依赖、自由贸易和由殖民主义造成的权力不平衡所引起的。有一种特定的援助叙述被推动着。就我个人而言，我认为贫困应该按家庭来定义，因为每个家庭面临的挑战都是独特的，贫困对单个家庭意味着什么。其他人可能会发现我的立场是不现实的，但如果试图解决一个接一个的问题，你将如何提出这样一个个性化的方法的指标呢？特别是如果你想要赋予社区力量，并专注于自治。
This is so off base. The media does everything it can to avoid critising africans in any way and it (like you) blames all of africans problems on westerners. I watch a lot of american news channels and movies. Nothing they have put out in the last 20 years does anything but portray africa as a helpless victim.
A good example is a news story I saw once. They put all the blame for a small genocide on the arms dealers who sold the africans guns. It was like they do not think africans have any self control, if someone sells them a gun they can’t help but start murdering people with it. They feel like they need to babysit africans and not be real with them so we don’t hurt their feelings, like they are somehow less than westerners.
这太离谱了。媒体尽其所能避免以任何方式批评非洲人，并且像你一样把所有非洲人的问题都归咎于西方人。我看了很多美国新闻频道和电影。在过去20年里，他们所做的一切只是把非洲描绘成一个无助的受害者。我看过的一个新闻故事是一个很好的例子，他们把一次小规模的种族灭绝的责任全部推到向非洲人出售枪支的军火商身上。就好像他们认为非洲人没有自我控制能力一样，如果有人卖给他们一把枪，他们就会忍不住用它杀人。西方人觉得他们需要照顾非洲人，这并不符合他们的现实，这样我们就不会伤害他们的感情，就好像他们不如西方人一样。
I think you’re the one who’s so off base here. Have you ever heard of the word COMPLICITY? If you’re complicit in a crime, like say supplying weapons to a gang that terrorizes a neighborhood, you are part of the problem that causes that neighborhood to experience gang violence. So if you have to quell the violence in that neighborhood, you not only go after gang members whom you’ve caught red-handed terrorizing people but also to their supplier of weapons.Likewise, a terror cell indoctrinates its members into having extreme ideologies and beliefs. Only then will they go and target innocent members of society. So, when you go after terrorists, you not only go after the ones who’ve committed an act of terror at the present moment but also the ones still in training and indoctrination camps because they’ll commit acts of terror in the future. That’s what COMPLICITY is all about. Did you see Osama targeting any US/UK interest by himself? No, but he was responsible for masterminding horrible acts of terror through his men without ever lifting a finger personally. That’s why the NATO forces went after him. Because he was COMPLICIT in aiding and abetting acts of terror. He was in fact the CORE problem whom they need to deal with. So why do you want to absolve the West when they do so elsewhere, but you want to label entire countries that don’t support the West’s imperialist ideology “terrorist countries”? Want to know why? It’s because of indoctrination from the same media that has made you believe that challenges facing African/Arab countries are of their own making. That Iran (insert relevant Arab country that defies the US) is a sponsor of terror.Did the US ask why the Mujahideen which they armed over 5 decades ago to fight against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan don’t have self-control and are killing their citizens and troops? No, because they know they’d already INDOCTRINATED them with extremist ideologies earlier on. Did they wonder why the Sunni extremists whom they armed in 2011 to help overthrow Gaddafi and Bashar-al Assad morph into ISIS which killed US/EU citizens, including a US ambassador in Libya?
我觉得你才是最离谱的那个。你听说过共犯这个词吗？如果你参与了一场犯罪，比如向一个让社区遭受恐怖袭击的团伙提供武器，你就是导致该社区经历帮派暴力的问题的一部分，所以，如果你要平息那个地区的暴力，你不仅要追捕那些被你当场抓获的恐吓人们的团伙成员，还要追捕他们的武器供应商。同样，一个恐怖组织还向其成员灌输极端的意识形态和信仰，这样他们才会去攻击社会上的无辜的人。
所以，当你追捕恐怖分子时，你不仅要追捕那些目前已经实施恐怖行动的人，还要追捕那些还在接受训练和灌输的人，因为他们将来还会实施恐怖行动，这就是同谋的意义所在。你看到奥萨马本拉登以美国和英国的利益为目标自己动手过吗？没有，但他通过手下策划了恐怖行动却没有亲自动手，这就是北约军队追捕他的原因。因为他是协助和教唆恐怖活动的同谋，他实际上是他们需要处理的核心问题。
那么，当西方在其他地方这样做的时候，你为什么要宽恕西方，而你却想给所有不支持西方帝国主义意识形态的国家贴上“恐怖主义国家”的标签呢？想知道为什么吗？这是因为来自同一伙媒体的灌输，让你相信非洲或阿拉伯国家面临的挑战是他们自己造成的。伊朗（参与反抗美国的相关阿拉伯国家）是恐怖主义的支持者。
美国有没有问过，为什么他们在50多年前武装起来对抗苏联占领阿富汗的圣战者这么没有自制力，杀害他们自己的公民和军队？不，因为美国政府早就知道他们给这些圣战者灌输了极端主义思想。为什么在2011年武装起来帮助推翻卡扎菲和巴沙尔·阿萨德的逊尼派极端分子变成了ISIS，杀害了美国和欧盟公民，包括美国驻利比亚大使？
为什么他们要这么做，包括在中东实施的其他不可言喻的恐怖行动？你知道为什么吗？那是因为他们已经被灌输了极端思想，并被提供了很多武器。纳粹为什么要这么做？同样的答案。为什么日本人要在二战中给他们的受害者带来难以想象的恐怖？同样的答案。为什么定居者要参与对美洲原住民的种族灭绝？为什么他们没有自制力呢？同样的答案，教化和武装。
西方不仅参与了非洲几个类似恐怖组织的积极灌输，而且还向他们提供武器，破坏他们各自国家的稳定。有时，这可能涉及支持一个对不同种族成员发泄愤怒的野蛮部落政权，从而为随后的种族间冲突播下种子。最近，法国承认了其在卢旺达针对图西族的大屠杀中所扮演的角色，甚至法国总统埃马纽埃尔·马克龙也亲自前往卢旺达，为大约30年前法国促成的可怕的大屠杀道歉。
你想怎样把他们从这些罪行中赦免，表明这是非洲人自己的问题，给西方所做的一切找借口。也许你被灌输了一剂“美国例外论”，这种论调让你看不到主流媒体灌输给你的以外的东西。你需要深入研究地缘政治，否则，你的论点就会被认为是一个没有批判性思维，但会抓住任何机会把问题归咎于肤色的人。
I think that the comment made by Bill was in reference to private arms dealers - and in that context, his comment was valid.
我认为Bill Meyer的评论是指私人军火商，在这方面，他的评论是正确的。
No matter if we look at S. America, N. America, Africa, or the Middle East and Asia, we see africans do poorly. It makes no sense to blame Westerners for that. There are plenty of places where africans are free from westerners, yet they still do poorly.Are you saying that all of Africa’s failures are the Wests fault? Africa was massively dysfunctional when Westerners were not there, and they are massively dysfunctional when they are.Countries that were colonized in the past are actually on average more successful than ones that were never colonized. If the West had not invented agricultural methods and medicines, africa would never have such a large population. Without western help they cant sustain that population, many nations in africa rely on the west for AID to keep their people alive, and Western countries graciously help them. Only westerners send money to africans, only westerners care about africans. Maybe in the past they were bad to them, but today they are the only ones trying to help them.
无论我们看南美、北美、非洲，还是中东和亚洲，我们都看到非洲人做得很差，因此责怪西方人是没有意义的。在很多地方，非洲人没有受到西方人的影响，但他们仍然做得很差。你是说非洲所有的失败都是西方的错吗？不管西方人在不在非洲，非洲都存在大量机能失调。平均而言，过去被殖民过的国家比从未被殖民过的国家更成功。
如果西方没有发明农业技术和药物，非洲就不会有这么多人口；没有西方的帮助，他们无法维持那么多的人口，许多非洲国家依靠西方的援助来维持人民的生命，西方国家慷慨地帮助他们。只有西方人才给非洲人钱，只有西方人才关心非洲人。也许在过去，西方人对他们不好，但今天西方人是唯一试图帮助他们的人。
Disrupting the nation by colonialist strategies like supply arms to war lords is a real thing.That’s how the white man got rid of the Indians
通过殖民主义战略，比如向军阀提供武器等制造一个国家的混乱是真实存在的。白人就是这样除去印第安人的。
The root of that problem is that Africans of virtually every country remain immersed in tribal thinking. The leaders, whoever becomes President, Prime Minister, or another type of national leader, only thinks of their own interests, their immediate family, and the henchmen from their own tribe who keep them in power. Everyone else is on their own.
这个问题的根源在于，几乎每个国家的非洲人都沉浸在部落思维中。无论谁成为总统、总理，或其他类型的国家领导人，他们只考虑自己、他们的直系亲属，以及来自他们自己部落的亲信的利益，这些亲信才能让他们掌权。其他人只能靠自己了。
Tribalism is something that exists everywhere, and in such a case, it’s not the main driving factor, it’s just the result.The wealthy people in power work to benefit themselves, their friends, and their family. Everywhere.In Africa, it so happens that often, the people getting helped are also part of that person’s tribe. But it doesn’t mean that the person in power actually cares in any way about poor people of their tribe.
部落主义无处不在，在这种情况下，这不是主要的驱动因素，只是结果。有钱有势的人掌权，给自己、朋友和家人牟利，这种情况无处不在。在非洲，经常发生的情况是，得到帮助的人也是那个人部落的一部分，但这并不意味着掌权者真的关心他们部落里的穷人。