为什么希腊不从土耳其手中收回君士坦丁堡？
Why doesn''t Greece reclaim Constantinople from Turkey?
译文简介
自从“文明”诞生以来，国家的边界一直在变化。由一个国家的人民建造的建筑、城市和整个地区，现在都在另一个国家的国际和法律承认的边界之内是很正常的。
正文翻译
自从“文明”诞生以来，国家的边界一直在变化。由一个国家的人民建造的建筑、城市和整个地区，现在都在另一个国家的国际和法律承认的边界之内是很正常的。
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, Senior Lecturer at Casa College (2017-present)，Lives in Nicosia, Cyprus
Long answer: National borders have been changing ever since the dawn of ‘civilization’. Structures, cities and entire regions that were built by the people of one country, now are within the internationally and legally recognized borders of another country. Prudent, clever and civilized people realize that and leave the specific topic to rest. Other people prefer to create nationalistic and racist havoc out of it. That’s their business not mine.
Short answer: Because it does not belong to her anymore.
长答案：自从“文明”诞生以来，国家的边界一直在变化。由一个国家的人民建造的建筑、城市和整个地区，现在都在另一个国家的国际和法律承认的边界之内是很正常的。谨慎、聪明和文明的人意识到了这一点，并把具体的话题留待讨论。而其他人则更喜欢从中制造民族主义和种族主义的破坏。但那是他们的事，不是我的事。
短答案：因为它（君士坦丁堡）不再属于她（希腊）了。
Karaca Kestelli
, Partner at Peak Partners (2018-present)，Lived in Istanbul
Very provocative question. Very very much!
First. The name of the city in question is no longer Constantinople but İstanbul. One may live in the past, and dream this city to be part of the prosperous whatever. But reality remains intact. Shall we call most of the German country Prussia? It is basically degrading to Turks and disregarding history of ~550 years.
Second. What does one mean by reclaim? Are you referring to a piece in the sea and you reclaim as land to build building on it? It insinuates that the city in question belongs to Greece and it’s a matter of just asking to reclaim. It is utterly absurd.
And also practically everyone did answer mindfully? With which support, with which military power? What about 15 million+ inhabitants?
这个问题很有挑衅性。
第一，这座城市的名字不再是君士坦丁堡，而是伊斯坦布尔。一个人可能生活在过去，梦想这座城市的繁荣过去，但现实仍然是无情的。我们可以把德国的大部分地区称为普鲁士吗？它个问题基本上是对土耳其人的侮辱，无视了约550年的历史。
第二，收回是什么意思？你指的是大海中的一块土地，你是在填海造地，在上面建房子吗？它暗示这座城市属于希腊，这完全是荒谬的。
有谁认真回答了吗？希腊得到了哪些支持，？有哪些军事力量？那伊斯坦布尔现有的1500多万居民怎么办呢？
Blackberry Priv
Constantinople was never Greek, it was Roman. The Greeks had some overlapping land 6th Century BC but the Roman's conquered all lands in and around what is known as Constantinople and the city was named after Constantine-I, who is Roman (Italian).
The Roman empire was renamed the Byzantine empire after Emporer Constatine-I relocated the capital of the Roman empire to Byzantine hence the name Byzantine empire. Greece was amongst the many countries that fell to the Roman's and became part of the Roman/Byzantine empire hence how the Greeks became part of Byzantine empire.
So this question is mute as Constantinople was Roman (Italian) and not Greek.
君士坦丁堡从来就不是希腊人的，而是罗马人的城市。公元前6世纪，希腊人拥有一些与君士坦丁堡重叠的土地，但罗马人征服了君士坦丁堡及其周围的所有土地，这座城市以罗马（意大利语）的君士坦丁一世命名。
在君士坦丁一世将罗马帝国的首都迁至拜占庭后，罗马帝国更名为拜占庭，因此被称为拜占庭帝国。希腊是众多落入罗马人手中并成为罗马/拜占庭帝国一部分的国家之一，因此希腊人是拜占庭帝国的一部分。
所以这个问题是无效的，因为君士坦丁堡是罗马（意大利）而不是希腊的一部分。
Yiannis Tsiolis, I live in Greece
Why would we?
The modern city of Constantinople/Istanbul is a Turkish metropolis of 12 million people. Of them only about 5 or 6 thousand are of Greek descent. If we did claim the city, we would ask for trouble. Imagine if Turkey accepted such a claim. Greece would have more Turks than Greeks! We will pass.
All we ask of Turkey is to respect the orthodox patriarchate of Constantinople/Istanbul and all the Christians in Turkey. That is enough.
我们为啥要这么做？
现在的君士坦丁堡/伊斯坦布尔是一个拥有1200万人口的土耳其大都市，其中只有大约5000到6000人是希腊后裔。如果我们真的占领了这座城市，那我们就是自找麻烦。想象一下，如果土耳其接受了这样的要求，那么希腊的土耳其人会比希腊人还要多! 这一点，我们不接受。
我们对土耳其的所有要求就是，尊重君士坦丁堡/伊斯坦布尔的东正教主教和土耳其所有的基督徒。这就够了。
Gabriel J. Ferrer, Citizen of the USA
Greece did in fact attempt to do this as part of the 1919–1922 Greco-Turkish War, fought in the aftermath of the defeat and partition of the Ottoman Empire after the conclusion of the First World War.
It did not go very well for the Greeks. After being defeated militarily by the Turks, Turkey and Greece undertook a population exchange. Most of the Greek Orthodox population of Anatolia departed for Greece at this time, leaving only a tiny Greek Orthodox population remaining.
Any further attempt to reclaim Constantinople would be completely pointless.
事实上，希腊在1919年至1922年的希腊-土耳其战争中确实尝试过这样做，这场战争是在第一次世界大战结束后奥斯曼帝国战败和分裂之后进行的。
这场战争对希腊人来说结局并不好，在被土耳其军队打败后，土耳其和希腊进行了人口交换。这个时候，安纳托利亚的大部分希腊东正教人口都去了希腊，只有为数不多的东正教徒留了下来。
任何为收复君士坦丁堡所做的努力都是毫无意义的。
Alexandros Kanlis
, works at ITI CERTH，Lives in Thessaloniki, Greece
How can Greece reclaim a city that never belonged to Greece at the first place?
As Greeks we are taught the Byzantine empire history as our history. This makes sense since Greece was a part of the Byzantine empire at the time. But Greeks are falsely led to believe that the Byzantine empire equals Greece. The truth is that the Byzantine empire was just east part of the Roman empire and that not everything that belonged to the Byzantine empire is Greek. That is the case with Constantinople as well. So, apart from the practical issue of the population of Istanbul, which is more than the whole population of Greece, the question does not actually make any sense.
希腊如何才能收回一座从一开始就不属于希腊的城市？
作为希腊人，我们被教导拜占庭帝国的历史就是我们的历史，这是有道理的，因为希腊当时是拜占庭帝国的一部分。但希腊人错误地认为拜占庭帝国等于希腊。事实是，拜占庭帝国只是东罗马帝国，并不是所有属于拜占庭帝国的东西都是希腊的，君士坦丁堡也是如此。因此，除了伊斯坦布尔人口的实际问题之外，这个问题实际上没有任何意义。伊斯坦布尔的人口比希腊的总人口还要多。
El Azem
, knows Turkish，Lives in London2020–present
One of the most stupid questions I’ve ever heard. The same can be asked for Aborigins to reclaim the whole of Australia, or the Indians to claim the continent of America, or Germans to reclaim Alsace from French or Kaliningrad from Russians. The list may go on for a long time. Then we’d have wars on all over the world. Some countries are making that mistake though and the result is usually a bloodbath. Serbians to try to take Kosovo is one of the examples from recent history.
Another would be Italians, since they are decendants of Romans to reclaim Israel.. I’m not even talking about the Israel claiming Palestinian lands.
I believe this would answer your question.
By the way, I’m not really telling this from a nationalist perspective. It’s more of a realistic perspective, since I’m nowhere close to being a nationalist.
这是我听过的最愚蠢的问题之一。同样的要求也适用于土著人夺回整个澳大利亚，或印第安人夺回美洲大陆，或德国人从法国人手中夺回阿尔萨斯，或从俄罗斯人手中夺回加里宁格勒。这个名单可能很长。然后我们会在全世界发动战争。然而，一些国家正在犯这种错误，其结果通常是一场大屠杀，塞尔维亚人试图占领科索沃是近代历史上的一个例子。
另一个例子可能是意大利人，因为他们是收复以色列的罗马人的后裔。我甚至还没提以色列占领巴勒斯坦土地的例子。
我相信这能回答你的问题。
顺便说一句，我并不是从民族主义的角度在说这件事。这更像是一个现实的观点，因为我离成为一个民族主义者还差得很远。
Ioannis Manomenidis, I am Greek, living most of my life in Greece.
Greece and Greeks have managed to be in the best political and social situation in all Balkans including Turkey, which even though it has a better economy and demography, Turkey nevertheless suffers by inequalities both political and economic inside, its society that create tensions with minorities or social classes and tries to influence public attention by creating tensions with neighbors.
Greece and Greeks have no reason to unhappy. Only stupidness could exchange existing happiness with destruction and pain, even if it maybe someone else’s. Why should Greece invest in bad dreams when we can dream of the good?
Greece has invested in the mutual prosperity of all the neighboring Balkan countries, including Turkey. Those who have rejected this option may explain to their citizens. We will proceed with those who have had grabbed this opportunity and luckily most Balkan countries have done so.
在包括土耳其在内的所有巴尔干地区，希腊和希腊人的政治和社会状况都处于最佳状态，尽管土耳其的经济和人口状况更好，但土耳其内部仍存在政治和经济不平等，它的少数民族之间、社会各阶层之间关系紧张，它还试图通过制造和邻国的紧张关系来转移公众的注意力。
希腊和希腊人没有理由不高兴。只有笨蛋才会用现有的幸福去交换毁灭和痛苦，哪怕这份幸福可能是别人的。既然我们可以实现美好的梦想，为什么我们还要为噩梦买单呢？
希腊致力于创造包括土耳其在内的所有巴尔干邻国间的共同繁荣，那些拒绝合作的国家需要向其公民做出解释。我们将继续和已经把握住这一时机的国家通力合作，幸运的是，大多数巴尔干国家已经这样做了。
Enes Kaya, masters International Relations, University of Queensland (1999)
You are welcomed to reclaim or take or whatever. When Mr Hertz as president of Jews came to Sultan Abduhamid if they pay all the debt of Ottomans and take Jerusalem in return,Sultan said if you pay the price we paid, NO PROBLEM. The Grand Vezir replied that that we conquest Palestina with the blood of 300 000 Martrys, The Sultan told Mr.Hertz (head of Zion) if you pay the price -you can have it. So anybody wants İSTANBUL -come and get it but with your blood…
欢迎你们来收复或带走任何东西。当犹太人的头领Hertz先生来见Abduhamid苏丹的时候，他说，如果我们可以偿还奥斯曼人的所有债务的话，作为回报，我们要占领耶路撒冷。苏丹说，如果你可以偿还我们所付出的代价，行，没有问题。我们用30万勇士的鲜血征服了巴勒斯坦。苏丹告诉Hertz先生(锡安的首领)，如果你付出相同的代价，你就能得到它。所以，任何人想要得到伊斯坦布尔——就拿鲜血来换吧。
Faniel M. Soneira, Years of experience eating crow, foot, and humble pie
A number of reasons…
The most important is that eventually an issue is over. Call it a statute of limitations, if you will. At this point, Istanbul — as it’s called now — has a long Turkish history, and is full of Turks. Constantinople as a Greek town just doesn’t make sense anymore.
(Can you imagine if Greece decided that it should reclaim all of Alexander’s old empire? ;D Countries from Albania to Pakistan would be indignant and annoyed.)
The other big reason is that Greece could probably not win the requisite war against Turkey. Even if they could, the wreckage would be so vast, that the acquisition of Constantinople/Istanbul would not be worth the price.
有很多的原因......
最重要的一点是这个问题已经过时了。如果你愿意，我们可以把它称之为诉讼时效。在这一点上，伊斯坦布尔——它现在的名字——有着悠久的土耳其历史，而且到处都是土耳其人。君士坦丁堡作为一个希腊城镇已经没有意义了。
(如果希腊决定收回亚历山大时期的所有旧领土，你能想象会是什么局面吗?从阿尔巴尼亚到巴基斯坦，很多国家都会感到十分愤怒和恼火。）
另一个重要原因是希腊可能无法赢得对土耳其的必要战争。即使他们赢了，也会造成巨大的破坏，为了收复君士坦丁堡/伊斯坦布尔付出这样的代价不值得。
Spencer Alexander McDaniel, B.A. Classical Studies & History, Indiana University Bloomington (2022)
Well, for one thing, because any effort by Greece to reclaim Constantinople would be unbelievably foolish and doomed to failure from the very start.
As of 2018, it was estimated that the total population of the entire country of Greece was around 10.74 million people. That is the total population, including women, children, the elderly, and people who couldn’t fight due to disabilities. The active personnel in the Hellenic Armed Forces in 2017, meanwhile, was only 106,624 people. The wartime strength that the Hellenic Armed Forces could muster is estimated to be around 750,000 personnel.
首先，希腊为收复君士坦丁堡所做的任何努力都是难以置信的愚蠢，这件事从一开始就注定会失败。
截至2018年，据估计希腊全国总人口约为1074万人。这是总人口数，其中还包括妇女、儿童、老人和因残疾不能参加战斗的人。与此同时，2017年希腊武装部队的现役人员只有106624人。据估计，希腊武装部队战时可集结的兵力约为75万人。
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Turkey already has nearly as many soldiers on active duty and in the reserves as the number that Greece could reasonably expect to muster if there was a war. If Greece tried to invade Turkey and seize the city of İstanbul, the invasion force probably wouldn’t make it very far. The invasion would quickly transform into a terrible bloodbath for the Greek soldiers.
而2019年单单伊斯坦布尔一个城市的人口就约有1552万人。这意味着仅伊斯坦布尔的人口就比希腊全国总人口高出约1.5倍。与此同时，土耳其武装部队目前拥有约35.52万名现役士兵和约37.87万预备役部队。
土耳其现役和预备役士兵的数量已经接近希腊战时预计可以集结到的总兵力数量。如果希腊试图入侵土耳其并占领伊斯坦布尔，他们可能走不了多远。但对于希腊士兵来说，这场入侵很快就会演变成一场可怕的大屠杀。
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Even if Greece did somehow manage to reclaim the city, despite the fact that the city has a vastly larger population than the entire country of Greece, they would find it impossible to govern because almost no one there would want them ruling the city to begin with.
此外,如今绝大多数生活在伊斯坦布尔的人都认为自己是土耳其人。伊斯坦布尔的希腊人只有3000左右，希腊人甚至不再是人口中的主要少数。很少有生活在伊斯坦布尔的人希望希腊收回这座城市。
即使希腊以某种方式收复了这座城市，由于这座城市的人口比希腊全国的人口还要多得多，最终他们也会发现，他们根本治理不了这座城市，因为从一开始就没有人会支持他们。
Cormac McQuillan, lives in Earth
Constantinople was the capital of the Roman Empire in the middle ages, which was a multi ethnic christian state. It wasn't a Greek nation, even though in the later period it was mostly populated by Greeks. Therefore, there isn't any real historical claim of Constantinople by Greek nationalists, much as they'd deny that.
Another point is how would you go about that? The population of Istanbul is even bigger than Greece's. How could the Greeks hope to hold such a city? It's purely impossible. The Greek army wouldn't be able to hold it, and the Greek government would have ten million plus hostile citizens. It's simply a fantasy.
君士坦丁堡是中世纪罗马帝国的首都，是一个多民族的基督教国家。虽然在后期它主要由希腊人组成，但它并不是一个希腊人的国家。尽管希腊的民族主义者会否认这一点，但事实上他们从未对君士坦丁堡做出任何真正意义上的历史主张。
还有一个问题就是，你会怎么做？伊斯坦布尔的人口甚至比整个希腊还要多，希腊人怎么可能希望拥有这样一座城市呢？这完全是不可能的。希腊军队也控制不住它，希腊政府将遭受到超过1000万敌对公民的反对。这不过是白日做梦。
Ahmet Cakir, Studied at the Berlin Technical University
What does it mean to reclaim? Had Greece ever a claim? Constantinople was the capital of Eastern Roman Empire. During the whole time when this empire existed, there was no Greece. Also later there was no Greece until 1829. What would be a justification for a claim?
BTW. For ages, it was claimed that Greeks had founded the city. The (Greek) mythology tells that people from Megara have founded it and named after their king Byzas, hence the name Byzans. Well, the city is about 8,500 years old, The history of the area as a human settlement about 300,000 years.
If ever, Greece could claim a small part of Istanbul. The medi citadel of Galata was a colony of the Republic of Genoa between 1273 and 1453. The famous Galata Tower was built by the Genoese in 1348 at the northernmost and highest point of the citadel. The colony was somewhat older. may I ask Greece to negotiate with Italy first?
收复是什么意思?希腊拥有过君士坦丁堡吗?君士坦丁堡是东罗马帝国的首都。在整个罗马帝国存在的时期，根本没有希腊。希腊直到1829年才建立。它有什么理由来收复它?
顺便说一句，很久以来，人们都声称这座城市是希腊人建立的。(希腊)神话告诉人们，来自Megara的人建立了它，并以他们的国王拜占庭来命名这座城市，因此得名拜占庭。这座城市大约有8500年的历史，而人类在此居住的历史大约有30万年。
如果可能的话，希腊可以索要伊斯坦布尔的一小部分。1273年至1453年间，Galata中世纪城堡曾是热那亚共和国的殖民地。1348年，热那亚人在城堡的最北端和最高点建造了著名的Galata塔。这里作为殖民地的历史更加悠久，我可以让希腊先与意大利谈谈吗?
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Bura Mer, lives in Turkey
I keep seeing this question asked in different ways on Quora and still did not want to answer till now, just not to break wet dreams of some nationalistic people from neighboring country. But this time will give some answer..
Reclaiming is easy but who will give Istanbul (Constantinople) to Greece and how. Do you think all countries in the world will agree Greece to control straits?Anyone who know a little about the history of the region will tell that Greece never had Istanbul or Constantinople. It belonged to Roman Empire than Eastern Roman Empire made Constantinople an Imperial city, a capital so how to return Istanbul (Constantinople) to Greece or Greece will reclaim it??
在Quora上，我经常看到有人以不同的方式来问这个问题，直到现在，我都不是很想回答。因为我不想打破邻国一些民族主义者的美梦。但这一次，我想给出一些答案......
收复土地其实很容易，但是谁会把伊斯坦布尔(君士坦丁堡)还给希腊呢？又怎么还呢？你认为世界上所有的国家都会同意让希腊来控制海峡吗?只要是对这一地区的历史略知一二的人都知道，希腊从未拥有过伊斯坦布尔（君士坦丁堡），它属于罗马帝国，是东罗马帝国使君士坦丁堡成了帝国城市和首都，所以要怎么把伊斯坦布尔(君士坦丁堡)还给希腊呢？又或者说希腊要怎么收复它呢??
如果提问者是为意大利提出这个问题，我倒是可以理解，但是让希腊收复君士坦丁堡简直是太可笑了。要不，让希腊把整个欧洲、中东和印度都收复了吧(多年前，我曾遇到一位非常老的希腊人，他说所有的人都是希腊人)。等等，我们还可以为英国人，蒙古人，鞑靼人，德国人，土耳其人申明这件事…当然，我们也可以把伊斯坦布尔和它所有的人民归还给希腊，但是要保留他们全部的权利。那么，最多四年的时间，这些自作聪明的民族主义者又会在Quora上问这样一个问题:“希腊人能从土耳其手中收回希腊吗?”不好意思，这样的问题只配有这样的答案。我们还是喝点小酒，一起憧憬美好的未来吧。
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