为什么美国窃取了墨西哥的土地而不是加拿大的土地？
Why did the USA steal the lands of Mexico but not of Canada?
译文简介
他们在1812年的时候倒是尝试过。不过进展不顺。
正文翻译
Why did the USA steal the lands of Mexico but not of Canada?
为什么美国偷了墨西哥的土地而不是加拿大的土地？
为什么美国偷了墨西哥的土地而不是加拿大的土地？
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, admitted as a lawyer in five countries
They tried to steal Canadian lands in 1812. It didn’t go well.
他们在1812年的时候倒是尝试过。不过进展不顺。
Harry Roberts
It is funny how in the US, it is called “the war of 1812” and features the Brits attacking the US; In Canada they call it “the invasion of Canada” because, well, we invaded.
有趣的是，在美国，它被称为"1812年战争"，特点是英国人攻击美国；在加拿大，他们称之为"入侵加拿大"，因为，我们入侵了。
Moreover, 1812 is only the year when the war began, but not the year when it ended.
The Second World War could be called the war of 1939 by Europeans and the war of 1941 by Americans?
Using the term “The war of 1812” about a conflict which lasted more than one year is confusing and misleading.
此外，1812年只是战争开始的那一年，而不是战争结束的那一年。
第二次世界大战可以被欧洲人称为1939年战争，又被美国人称为1941年战争吗？
用"1812年的战争"一词来形容一场持续了一年多的冲突是混乱和误导性的。
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My HS history teacher dubbed it the ‘War of the Incompetents’ but that has failed to catch on despite its accuracy and distinctive flavour. Neither side wrapped itself in glory.
我的高中历史老师将其称为"无能者的战争"，这一说法尽管未能流行起来，但却准确而别具风格。双方都没有在这场战争中获得什么荣耀。
Really ? Burning your capital doesn’t sound incompetent, of course your going bring up about the yanks burning York ( now Toronto) big deal please do it again
你确定吗？焚烧了你的首都听起来并不无能，当然你会提起美国佬焚烧约克（现在的多伦多）这个大事件，请再做一次。
Given that it was a Canadian high school, I don’t think its proper to burn Washington again. The US performance was underwhelming at best, but the British/Canadian side also made serious errors.
鉴于教我的是一所加拿大高中，我认为再次烧毁华盛顿是不合适的。美国的表现充其量是令人失望的，但英国/加拿大方面也犯了严重错误。
There was no Canada then lol. Also, the war of 1812 only professionalized the U.S military and thus went westward unopposed.
那时还没有加拿大呢，笑。另外，1812年的战争只是使美国军队专业化，因此西进运动时没有遭到反对。
to be fair, the US gained west florida and the ohio river valley
公平地说，美国在这场战争中获得了西佛罗里达和俄亥俄河谷
Regained the Ohio River Valley. That territory was already supposed to be in US hands, and one of the causes of the War of 1812 was the British failure/refusal to fully vacate. The Brits were accused of fomenting and supporting Native resistance to American settlers. At the end of the War, the Brits got out of the US territory for good, both sides agreed to keep warships off the Great Lakes and the US gave up notions of taking over Upper Canada (now southern Ontario). A draw of sorts altho as underdog the US might claim some measure of victory.
应该说“夺回”了俄亥俄河河谷。那片领土本来就应该在美国手中，而1812年战争的原因之一就是英国没有/拒绝完全撤出此地。英国人被指控煽动和支持土著人对美国定居者的抵抗。战争结束后，英国人永远离开了美国领土，双方同意将军舰远离五大湖，美国放弃了接管上加拿大（现在的安大略省南部）的想法。尽管美国作为劣势方可能会声称取得了某种程度的胜利，但这也算是一种平局。
But the US obxtively gained territory. The British coalition obxtively lost territory. The US lost nothing. The British coalition gained nothing. US victory.
Battle of Pensacola (1814) - Wikipedia
但美国在客观上获得了领土。英国联盟在客观上失去了领土。美国什么也没丢。英国联盟没有得到任何收获。所以这是美国的胜利。
彭萨科拉战役（1814年）-维基百科
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Good comment, but the Brits won an effective guarantee that the US would not invade Canada, a guarantee honored despite some political pressure on the US side in the late 19th century. The Brits didn’t lose any important territory — many of them were frankly ambivalent about Canada, TBH. In those days, India was the big prize and Africa and other Asian territories also important. I totally understand the US view — but also the UK view that they were, after all, preoccupied with much bigger fish to fry in Europe and elsewhere. The Napoleonic Wars were, for the UK, epic struggles for global domination and possibly for the future of the UK itself. Americans and Canadians share this: they think the War of 1812 was a much bigger deal than the Brits did, or do. The War of 1812 looms larger in Canada because it is part of Canada’s foundational mythology.
好评论，但英国人也赢得了美国不会入侵加拿大的有效保证，尽管美国方面在19世纪末对此施加了一些政治压力，但这个保证还是得到了尊重。英国人并没有失去任何重要的领土--他们中的许多人对加拿大坦率地说是矛盾的。在那些日子里，印度是最重要的奖品，非洲和其他亚洲领土也很重要。我完全理解美国的观点--但也理解英国的观点，即他们毕竟忙于在欧洲和其他地方钓更大的鱼。对英国来说，拿破仑战争是争夺全球统治权的史诗般的斗争，也可能是争夺英国本身的未来。美国人和加拿大人对这场倒是挺重视的：他们认为1812年的战争比英国人认为的要重要得多。1812年战争在加拿大显得更为重要，因为它是加拿大的建国基础理论的一部分。
The US did not try to annex Canada. That is a myth, that started in Ontario schools in the late 80’s, and somehow caught on in the rest of Canada.
Unfortunately, self loathing Americans have also recently bought into this myth, despite zero evidence.
The good news is, we have excellent records from that time period, so we know exactly why the War was fought, and what the obxtives were.
You can do your own search here:
https://www.archives.gov/
The USA invaded Canada for one simple reason.
When War was declared, the US Navy was no match for the Royal Navy on the open seas, and Britain was 3,000 miles away across the Atlantic.
It only made sense to invade the British territory that was directly adjacent to the US. Thus, Canada was invaded.
The aftermath of the war was also quite favorable to the United States. The US permanently kicked the British/Canadians out of the Southern Great Lakes region, and the Mississippi valley.
They also got the British yo stop arming the Native tribes, which left the west side open for US expansion.
Officially the war ended on a draw, but the US definitely came out ahead.
美国没有试图吞并加拿大。这是一个虚构的神话，80年代末在安大略省的学校里开始传出来，并以某种方式在加拿大其他地区流行起来。
不幸的是，自我厌恶的美国人最近也相信了这个神话，尽管没有证据。
好消息是，我们有那个时期的优秀记录，所以我们知道战争的确切原因，以及目标是什么。
你可以在这里进行自己的搜索。
美国入侵加拿大的原因很简单。
宣战时，美国海军在公海上不是皇家海军的对手，而英国在大西洋对面3000英里之外。
入侵与美国直接相邻的英国领土才有意义。因此，加拿大被入侵了。
战争的后果对美国也是相当有利的。美国将英国人/加拿大人永久地赶出了南部大湖区和密西西比河谷。
他们还让英国人停止武装原住民部落，这为美国的扩张留下了西边的空间。
官方说法是战争以平局结束，但美国绝对是赢家。
Be my guest, and go back throughout history forcing every country that won a war, and took land from the loser to give it back. Lol. Mexico lost a war with the US. The US was gracious enough to pay them for it. Of course Mexico had “stolen” it from Spain right before then, in their war for independence. Spain stole it from the Aztecs among others, who had stolen it from other tribes before that. The original “owners” arrived about 17,000 years ago from North Asia after generations of migration. Maybe we should give it back to north Asia? Of course that part of Asia was conquered by Russia a couple hundred years ago. So what to do, what to do?
请你回顾一下历史，再迫使每一个赢得战争、从失败者手中夺取土地的国家将其归还。真是笑话。墨西哥在与美国的战争中失败了。美国还很慷慨地给了他们钱。当然，在那之前，墨西哥已经在独立战争中从西班牙"偷"来了土地。西班牙是从阿兹特克人那里偷来的，而阿兹特克人在那之前也是从其他部落那里偷来的。最初的"主人"是在大约17000年前从北亚经过几代人的迁徙到达的。也许我们应该把它还给北亚？当然，亚洲的那一部分在几百年前就被俄罗斯征服了。那么，该怎么做呢？
Mexico did not steal it from Spain, Mexico inherited it from Spain. Mexicans are also part Native American. Im sure the Natives would have liked it more in Mexican hands where they wouldnt be put in a outdoor prison exhibits, the US and Mexico already share many of the same Native American tribes anyways.
And on the migration bit, maybe modern day Europeans should abandon Europe since they also migrated there thousands of years ago? Maybe no one is indigenous to anywhere except africa?
墨西哥没有从西班牙偷走它，墨西哥从西班牙继承了它。墨西哥人也有一部分是美洲原住民。我相信原住民会更喜欢它在墨西哥的手中，因为他们不会被关在户外的监狱里，反正美国和墨西哥已经有很多相同的原住民部落。
关于移民问题，也许现代的欧洲人应该放弃欧洲，因为他们也是在几千年前移民到那里的？也许除了非洲，根本没有人是本地人？
That’s exactly what he’s saying. None of us are indigenous or actually we are. I’m American. Heritage is nice but the USA is my country and I’m not giving back California to Mexico when it’s not there’s to take back.
这正是他所说的。我们都不是土著，或者说实际上我们是。我是美国人。遗产是一回事，但美国是我的国家，我不会把加利福尼亚还给墨西哥，因为它不属于那里。
You’re not indigenous to the Americas. And it is Mexicos to take back since historically Mexicans are more connected to these lands than immgrants that landed in the South West little over than 100 years ago, while we’ve been on these territories for 500 years and still counting, since we never left and thats just on our Hispanic side. On our Native American side we’ve been here since the Bering land bridge crossing, thousands of years ago.
你不是美洲的土著。应该让墨西哥人收回，因为从历史上看，墨西哥人与这些土地的联系比100多年前在西南地区登陆的移民更密切，而我们在这些领土上已经有500年的历史，而且还在继续，因为我们从未离开过，这还是只算我们西班牙裔的。算上我们的美洲原住民，我们几千年前就从白令陆桥过来到这里了。
Haha yea good luck with that bro. Definitely does not belong to you. That’s not how the word works. My mom’s grandfather immigrated to Los Angeles in the 1890’s. I was born here making me a Native American. You have no connection to the land. Have you ever been here? It’s funny you even think so. Do the Greeks really feel entitled to Anatolia or the Aztecs to Mexico? I mean, what kind of mentality is that? If it was Mexican it never would’ve been the economic powerhouse it was either, clearly, since Baja California isn’t.
哈哈，祝你好运，兄弟。这里绝对不属于你。这个词不是这么用的。我妈妈的祖父在19世纪90年代移民到了洛杉矶。我在这里出生，使我成为美国原住民。你和这块土地没有关系。你来过这里吗？你这么想真的很有意思。希腊人真的觉得有权拥有安纳托利亚或阿兹特克人拥有墨西哥吗？我的意思是，这算什么样的心态？就算还在墨西哥手里，它也绝不会成为经济强国，很显然，因为下加利福尼亚发展得很一般。
Where to begin where to decimate? Lets start off with the last bit since thats where I left off reading, just cringing at your recycled dialogue. “If it were Mexican it would not be a powerhouse” guess what buddy? If it werent part of the US, the US would be a lot poorer since California is the US’s biggest money maker. Plus if it werent for the US having California as part of its country, the US would be a lot more susceptible to foreign invasion. The US has come into its own with the annexation of the South West without it, it would not be the same country. Give Mexico that territory it would take full advantage of it too (maybe not as much as the US truth be told but who knows how it would turn out), especially industries like wine making, something that has been connected to Hispanic culture longer than Anglos who have lived historically in colder climates not desirable for wine making, while Hispanics and Hispanic culture comes from the mediterranean.
Greeks may not feel entitled to Anatolia but for sure they feel connected to it.
I have very much a connection to it, California is not an Anglo name it was named after a mythical island from a book of the time (founding era) by a Hispanic author. Same with many US states whose names and original governors were Hispanics. Did you not know that even the Aztecs for example originated in the South West of the US, the myth of Aztlan, the origin land of the Aztecs hence their name Aztecs = people of Aztlan. Many South West US Native American tribes still share a linguistical root language with Nahuatl the language of the Aztecs, coincedence? No. Even the Aztecs told Cortes they were not native to MesoAmerica.
Being born in the US makes you a Native American interesting? Then again your definition of Native American is different from mine, in the English Speaking world the US's soft power of influenced has influenced much of the world to think that only US Americans are Americans when every person from Canada to Argentina are Americans, it was just that the US got the nickname because of their generic name "United States of America".
Im US American, yes Ive been here.
槽点很多，从哪里开始呢？让我们从你最后一点开始吧，因为那是我最后读到的地方，我已经厌倦了你的咕噜话。"如果它属于墨西哥，它也不会是一个强国"，你猜怎么着，伙计？如果它不是美国的一部分，美国将变得更穷，因为加利福尼亚是美国最大的赚钱机器。另外，如果不是因为美国有加利福尼亚作为其国家的一部分，美国将更容易受到外国的入侵。美国通过吞并西南地区成功获得地理上的独立，如果没有它，在那里就会有一个不同的国家。给墨西哥这块领土，它也会充分利用它（说实话，也许用得没有美国强，但谁知道结果会怎样），特别是像酿酒这样的行业，与西班牙文化相关的时间比盎格鲁人更长，因为盎格鲁人历史上生活在不适合酿酒的寒冷气候中，而西班牙人和西班牙文化则来自地中海。
希腊人可能不觉得自己对安纳托利亚有什么权利，但可以肯定的是，他们觉得自己与安纳托利亚有联系。
我和它有非常多的联系，加利福尼亚不是一个盎格鲁的名字，它是以当时（建国时代）一位西班牙裔作者的书中的一个神话岛屿命名的。和这一样的是美国许多州的名字和最初的州长都是西班牙人。你可能不知道，即使是阿兹特克人也起源于美国西南部，阿兹特克的神话是阿兹特兰是阿兹特克人的起源地，因此他们叫阿兹特克人=阿兹特兰的人。许多美国西南部的原住民部落仍然与阿兹特克人的语言--纳瓦特尔语有着共同的语言根基，这是巧合吗？不，即使阿兹特克人告诉科尔特斯
（注：西班牙探险者）他们不是中美洲的原住民。
在美国出生使你成为美国原住民？这很有趣。然后，你对美国（美洲）原住民的定义与我不同，在英语世界里，美国的软实力影响了世界上许多人，使他们认为只有美国人是美国（美洲）人，但是实际上从加拿大到阿根廷的每个人都是美洲人，这只是美国（America）因为他们的通用名称"美利坚合众国（United States of America）"而得到的绰号。
我是美国人，是的，我一直在这里。
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Not really stealing; since Canada and Mexico were also stolen land.
没偷，因为加拿大和墨西哥也是偷来的土地。
Every country in the world is mostly violently stolen land if you go back far enough.
如果你回溯得足够远的话，世界上每个国家都是暴力偷来的土地。
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Not India, not China, excepting the disputed Tibet whose history I am not familiar with.
不包括印度，不包括中国，除了有争议的我不熟悉的西藏的历史。
You have to go back further. Look at the size of the Shang vs the current size of China.
你必须进一步回溯。看看商朝的规模和中国目前的规模。
Well technically Greece isn’t, same goes for Italy. It depends what you mean for stolen.. it’s a land conquered by force? Is land taken from another state? Is the land that was originally your excluded? Both the nations i said before, formed for will of the people that lived there but they technically occupied german ( north italy) and ottoman territory( Greece under the turks) in order to unify! Give me a definition of what you think is stolen. The first Egyptians didn’t stole they just settled there. I think you should fix saying “ every country has stolen some lands” .
严格来说，希腊不算，还有意大利。这取决于你所说的“被偷”是什么意思。是用武力征服的土地？是从另一个国家夺来的土地？是夺取原本属于你的土地？我说过的两个国家，都是因为生活在那里的人们的意愿而形成的，但他们为了统一，在技术上占领了德国（意大利北部）和奥斯曼帝国的领土（土耳其人统治下的希腊）！你认为什么是偷来的？给我一个你认为是偷来的东西的定义。第一埃及没有偷东西，他们只是在那里定居。我认为你应该改为 "每个国家都偷了一些土地"。
Oh, but Greece is. What do you think happened to the Pelasgians and the Minoans when the chariot warriors who would become the Mycenaeans (and perhaps later the Dorians) came to town?
And in Italy, would you care to tell me where all the Etruscans, Samnites, Ligurians, Lucanians, Oscans, Sabellians, Picenes and Cisapline Gauls went?
History is a turbulent place. Nobody played nice.
哦，但希腊也是偷来的。当后来成为迈锡尼人（也许还有后来的多里安人）的战车勇士来到这里时，你认为原住民佩拉斯基人和米诺斯人发生了什么？
在意大利，你能告诉我所有的伊特鲁里亚人、萨姆尼特人、利古里亚人、卢卡尼亚人、奥斯卡人、萨贝里人、皮肯尼人和西萨普里恩高卢人去了哪里吗？
历史充满了动荡。没有人是乖孩子。
A yes and the Usa wasn’t? Please I’m literally from the country that gifted the Spanish their most beloved sailor Colombus. Oh and also at least Mexico didn’t kill as much natives as Usa and Canada did and they celebrated their culture…. Now any idea what is left of the Indians of North America? Reduced to a percentage around the 0,0001 percent of the population? Stop with this nativist ideas. God didn’t send the Americans ( Europeans) to the Americas … the European imperialism did.
是，难道美国就不是？拜托，我就是来自那个把他们最爱的水手哥伦比亚送给西班牙人的国家。哦，还有，至少墨西哥没有像美国和加拿大那样杀害那么多土著人，他们还可以庆祝自己的文化....知道现在北美的印第安人还剩下了什么吗？缩减到人口的0.0001%左右？不要再有这种本土主义的想法了。并不是上帝把美国人（欧洲人）送到了美洲......是欧洲帝国主义。
Hey whoa! Please don’t equate Canada and the US in the indigenous slaying department. Mexico had far more violence than Canada. Not that Canada is blameless, but not anywhere in the same league.
嘿，哇哦! 请不要把加拿大和美国的原住民杀戮等同起来。墨西哥的暴力事件远远多于加拿大。不是说加拿大没有责任，但加拿大跟你们不是同一个量级的。
That would be the mass slaver, murderer and rapist of the Caribbean Indians. The guy who wrote to one of his friends
“There are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls; those from nine to ten are now in demand, and for all ages a good price must be paid.”. The guy who reduced the native Taino population of ~250,000 to a few hundred. What a beloved person /s
btw nothing like that happened in Canada
下面是加勒比海印第安人一个大奴隶主、杀人犯和强奸犯给他的一个朋友的写信：
"有很多经销商到处寻找女孩；现在9至10岁的女孩很抢手，所有年龄段的女孩都可以得到一个好价钱。" 就是这个人把泰诺人的人口从大约25万减少到几百人。一个多么可爱的人啊/s（狗头）
顺便说一下，在加拿大没有发生这样的事情
yes it did, a genocide of Natives with even estimates going up to 150M+ people dying In Canada/the US due to the plauges the Europeans brought with them
是的，他们干过，对原住民的种族灭绝，据估计，在加拿大/美国，由于欧洲人带来的瘟疫，原住民死亡人数高达1.5亿以上。
The plague wasn’t deliberately brought to the Americas with the aim of wiping the native population out. Nor were those natives enslaved. Nor, in Canada were there mass killings of the natives. So no it didn’t
瘟疫并不是故意带到美洲来消灭当地人口的。那些土著人也没有被奴役。在加拿大，也没有对土著人进行大规模屠杀。因此，并没有。
No. Luckily they all died on their own from illnesses.
There is no part of Canadian history with the indigenous people of the area that should fill you with pride. If the number of people killed is smaller it’s because there were less of them in the way.
不，只能说幸运的是他们都是自己因病去世的。
加拿大历史上没有任何与该地区原住民有关的部分能让你充满自豪感。如果被杀的人数较少，那是因为挡在殖民者前面的人较少。
I doubt many Americans and Europeans understand history in such a way. Well, idk where these ppl get their history learned anyway.
They’d claim that they “civilized” aboriginal people during British Empire period and bring aboriginal people prosperity.
I don’t want to naively say who is evil or not.
I do think that we should not twist histories like that.
我怀疑许多美国人和欧洲人是否都是以这种方式理解历史。好吧，我不知道这些人的历史是怎么学的。
他们会声称他们在大英帝国时期给原住民“带来了文明”，给原住民带来了繁荣。
我不想天真地说谁是邪恶的。
但我确实认为我们不应该这样扭曲历史。
All you cry babies need to grow up. No land was stolen, it was conquered! Purchased for in blood and lives. Britain started that war in 1812. Canada prevailed because the United States military wasn’t up to par. The United States also learned a hard lesson as Colin Reigels correctly points out with the illustration above.
Mexico lost a war because it couldn’t respect the Rio Grande was the rightful border. Their military wasn’t up to par and so they learned a hard lesson.
FYI the lesson is; don’t start fights and then cry when you lose!
你们这些爱哭的孩子需要长大了。没有土地是偷来的，是被征服的! 是用鲜血和生命买来的。英国在1812年发动了这场战争。加拿大取得了胜利，因为美国的军队没有达到标准。正如科林-雷格斯在上面的插图中正确指出的那样，美国也学到了一个深刻的教训。
墨西哥输了一场战争，因为它不能尊重格兰德河是合法的边界。他们的军队没有达到标准，所以他们得到了一个深刻的教训。
顺便说一下，这个教训是：不要挑起战斗，然后在输了之后哭哭啼啼。
Oh dear!
American education on display again.
The war of 1812 was started by the US invading Canada.
“Land offensive operations were initially limited to the American-Canadian border and the western frontier, with help from its Indian allies, leaving the initiative to the Americans. However American military defeats at the Siege of Detroit and the Battle of Queenston Heights thwarted attempts to seize the British colony of Upper Canada, improving British morale. American attempts to invade British Lower Canada and capture Montreal also failed.”
From this site…
War of 1812 - Wikipedia
“Don't start fights and cry when you lose.”
I would agree, and I can would have thought that the US powers would have learnt from 1812, but no…
Three words: Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan!
哦，天哪!
美国人又在展示他们的教育水平了。
1812年的战争是由美国入侵加拿大开始的。
"陆上进攻行动最初仅限于美加边境和西部边境，在其印第安人盟友的帮助下，将主动权留给了美国人。然而美国人在底特律围攻战和昆斯敦高地战役中的军事失败挫败了夺取英国殖民地上加拿大的企图，提高了英国的士气。美国人入侵英属下加拿大和夺取蒙特利尔的企图也失败了"。
来自这个网站...
1812年战争 - 维基百科
"不要挑起战斗，然后在输了之后哭哭啼啼"
我同意，而且我可以认为大国美国会从1812年中吸取教训，但是没有...
三个词：朝鲜、越南和阿富汗!
I disagree with you about the causes of the war of 1812. However, arguing about what started the war is really irrelevant to the point I’m making. My point is that the US government thought it could simply call up a crap load of poorly trained militias and fight an army that had been fighting Napoleon for almost a decade. Obviously, that did not work out so well but I don’t recall anyone whining about it. Instead the US military evolved because of it. Lastly, the wars you mentioned were all someone else’s war in which we stupidly got involved. Including Iraq and Afghanistan. Those situations are different and I agree with you, we didn’t heed the lessons from Vietnam. Hopefully, we learned from Iraq and Afghanistan not to get bogged down in meaningless occupations but don’t count on it.
我不同意你对1812年战争的原因的看法。然而，争论战争的起因与我要表达的观点真的无关。我的观点是，美国政府认为它可以简单地召集一帮训练有素的民兵，与一支已经与拿破仑战斗了近十年的军队作战。显然，这样做的效果并不好，但我不记得有人为此抱怨过。相反，美国军队因此而发展了起来。最后，你提到的那些战争都是别人的战争，我们愚蠢地卷入其中。包括伊拉克和阿富汗。这些情况是不同的，我同意你的看法，我们没有汲取越南的教训。希望我们能从伊拉克和阿富汗学到不要陷入无意义的占领中的教训，但希望不大。
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