荷兰工会老板称欧盟工人不会“帮助英国摆脱他们自己制造的烂摊子”
Dutch unx boss says EU workers will not ‘help UK out of the shit they created’
译文简介
“你只是希望他们来救你，然后在你不需要他们的时候再把他们一脚踢开。”——《独立报》报道。
正文翻译
Dutch unx boss says EU workers will not ‘help UK out of the shit they created’
荷兰工会老板称欧盟工人不会“帮助英国摆脱他们自己制造的烂摊子”
荷兰工会老板称欧盟工人不会“帮助英国摆脱他们自己制造的烂摊子”
（英国在闹油荒。）
新闻简介：
由于担心载重货车司机不足可能导致燃料短缺，英国各地的加油站经过几天的恐慌性抢购后，汽油正在耗尽。
政府正试图在圣诞节前缓解这些问题，为来自欧洲的载重物货车司机推出临时签证计划，允许他们在英国工作3个月，直到平安夜。
物流卡车的缺乏似乎对包括燃料、食品和其他必需品在内的许多行业产生了连锁反应，但一位来自欧盟的代表认为，短期解决方案不会让欧盟工人大量返回英国，帮助后者解决问题。
一位住在格拉斯哥的波兰司机说，欧盟工人不想在英国工作。他说：“认为移民就像自来水，需要时可以打开或关闭，这是一种无礼。你甚至能看到有海报上面写着‘养狗要慎重，不能因为圣诞节一时冲动而买狗’——这就是他们对待司机的方式：你只是希望他们来救你，然后在你不需要他们的时候再把他们一脚踢开。”
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You must be really desperate to accept this temporary job knowing they'll kick you out the moment they don't need you anymore.
I'm not talking about the temporality of the job per se. What would bother me is working somewhere, knowing they closed the borders because they don't want people like you in. Then during the shortage, they still wouldn't accept EU-citizens, but now that they nowhere else to go, they finally want a few to come and help. But then, after Christmas is done, the Europeans can fuck off back to their home countries.
当你知道他们一不需要你就会把你赶出去的时候，你一定非常渴望接受这份临时工作，对吧。
我说的不是工作本身的临时性。让我烦恼的是在某个地方工作，然后知道他们关闭边境是因为他们不想让你这样的人进来。然后在短缺期间，他们仍然不接受欧盟公民，但现在他们实在撑不住了，他们终于希望一些人来帮助他们了。但是，圣诞节过后，欧洲人就可以（再次）滚回他们的祖国去了。
I voted for Brexit and I have no problem at all with Europeans working in the UK.
In my opinion idea that Brexit was about "no more of YOU" is a very uncharitable take that is both reductive and needlessly personal.
Rather, in my view, it was about making British politicians accountable for what happens in the country without the scapegoat of Brussels and for giving the British government the ability to control migration levels. Lastly my vote was driven by my antipathy at the thought of being subsumed into a federal European structure with common legal systems, military, and economic policy.
我投票支持英国脱欧，但我对欧洲人在英国工作完全没有意见。
在我看来，认为英国脱欧是关于“不再有你”的想法是一种非常苛刻的看法，既简化又不必要的个人化。
相反，在我看来，这是为了让英国政客为本国发生的事情负责，而不是让布鲁塞尔成为替罪羊，并让英国政府有能力控制移民数量。最后，我投票支持的动机是，一想到自己会被纳入一个拥有共同法律体系、军事和经济政策的欧洲联邦结构，我就感到厌恶。
making British politicians accountable
I'm genuinely curious, and maybe I'm just too jaded with the political establishment, but did you really think that would ever happen? Politicans willingly making themselves actually accountable and taking charge of their actions?
British government the ability to control migration levels
We literally already had that.
“让英国政客负起责任”
我真的很好奇，也许我只是对政治体制厌倦了，但你真的认为会发生这种事吗？政客们愿意对自己的行为负责吗？
“让英国政府有能力控制移民数量”
我们实际上已经有这种能力了，用不着脱欧。
Regarding accountability I think it's a medium-long term process. But fundamentally Brexit will mean when all is said and done British politicians are accountable for what happens here at that parliament is the ultimate rule maker.
As for your second point I disagree. As long as a country is in the EU it cannot control migration from other member states regardless of the level. In my opinion meaningful control means that the government has the ability to admit who it wishes up to the level it deems is appropriate.
至于问责制，我认为这是一个中长期的过程。但从根本上说，英国脱欧意味着，当一切尘埃落定，英国政客要对议会发生的一切负责时，议会才是最终的规则制定者。
至于你的第二点，我不同意。只要一个国家在欧盟，它就无法控制来自其他成员国的移民，无论其数量多少。在我看来，有意义的控制意味着政府有能力接纳它认为合适的人。
Ok, maybe I wasn't quite saying what I wanted to say. Sure, maybe once brexit is done, British politicans can't just blame the EU for everything, but what i was really asking is what do you think that will change? Do you think they'll stop being sleazy, self-serving leeches who lie through their teeth at every opportunity? Because if you do I've got a bus to sell you.
Also, you might want to read up on what the EU immigration rules were when we were a member.
This is a useful lix
好吧，也许我表达不够准确。当然，也许一旦脱欧结束，英国政客就不能把一切都怪到欧盟头上了，但我真正想问的是，你认为这会有什么改变？你觉得他们会不再是那种卑鄙自私，一有机会就撒谎的吸血鬼吗？因为如果你相信的话，那我有辆巴士可以卖给你。
此外，你可能还想了解一下我们是欧盟成员时的移民规定。
这是一个有用的链接（译注：链接）
With respect I didn't find the Lawyers In For Britain page very persuasive. From my point of view it was basically indulging in a bit of whatabouttery and deliberately avoided the fundamental point that membership of the EU means no ability to meaningfully limit migration into the country from other EU states.
Now at least the government of the day has no excuses for failing to meet its immigration targets.
恕我直言，我并不觉得你给的“英国律师”页面很有说服力。在我看来，它基本上是沉浸在一些比烂论述中，并故意回避了一个基本观点，即欧盟成员国身份意味着没有能力有效地限制来自欧盟其他国家的移民进入该国。
现在，政府已经没有借口不能实现其移民（管控）目标了。
Well, you didn't answer my first question.
What do you think will change as a result politicians no longer being able to use the EU as a scapegoat?
好吧，你没回答我的第一个问题。
你认为政客们不再能把欧盟当作替罪羊会带来什么变化？
Politics is always going to attract sleazy power hungry people. What has Brexit got to do with that? He's not saying the UK will become some kind of Utopia. But it will mean that the people have the direct control to throw out politicians that do things/make laws they don't like.
政治总是会吸引那些渴望权力的卑鄙小人。脱欧和这有什么关系？他并不是说英国将成为某种乌托邦。但这将意味着人民有直接的控制来赶走那些做他们不喜欢的事情/制定他们不喜欢的法律的政客了。
The other guy literally said he voted for brexit "to make British politicians accountable for what happens in the country" as if they would magically stop being sleazy power hungry people when they can't blame the EU anymore
so ask him what brexit got to do with that lol
另一个人说，他投票支持脱欧是为了“让英国政客为这个国家发生的事情负责”，就好像当他们不能再责怪欧盟时，他们就会神奇地不再是肮脏的权力饥渴者似的
所以我问问他脱欧和这有什么关系，呵呵
The problem is that quite some people from the EU came to the UK to work and live there, and you turned them from co-citizens into immigrants overnight. This is a big loss of rights. And not in a friendly way - for example, the UK parliament had several votes about giving EU citizens already there a guaranteed right to residency and to stay there, but they decided against that.
I somebody from Romania, hungary or Poland moves to Germany to work in farms, as a plumber, or in a doctors consultancy, he has exactly the same rights as anybody else living there. Even if he is old or becomes ill or the economical situation turns very bad. He is part of the social contract, as a citizen. Not so in the UK.
And having this social contract is very important, because as an adult and professional, you are giving more, and carrying others on your shoulders, while as a child, as a disabled person, or an old person, you need the help of others. It is not OK to call for people to work for you for years, and then treat them like trash if you do not need or want them any more.
By the way, I, born in Germany, worked in the UK as an physicist, and IT and robotics specialist for STFC. I had extremely nice and qualified colleagues and managers - but I did not want to get old in a country like that.
问题在于，相当一部分来自欧盟的人来到英国工作和生活，而你一夜之间把他们从共同公民变成了移民。这是一个巨大的权利损失。而且不是以一种友好的方式——比如，英国议会曾数次投票决定给予已经在英国的欧盟公民有保障的居住权和逗留权，但他们决定反水了。
如果有人从罗马尼亚，匈牙利或波兰搬到德国，在农场工作，当水管工，或当医生顾问，他和其他生活在那里的人会享有完全相同的权利。即使他老了，生病了，或者经济状况变得非常糟糕。作为公民，他是社会契约的一部分。但在英国却不是这样。
有这样的社会契约是非常重要的，因为作为一个成年人和专业人士，你付出了更多，为他人负重前行，而作为一个孩子，一个残疾人，或者一个老人，你需要别人的帮助。让人们为你工作多年，然后如果你不再需要或想要他们了，就把他们当成垃圾踢开，这是不对的。
顺便说一下，我出生在德国，在英国工作，是一名物理学家，也是科学与技术设施理事会的IT和机器人专家。我有非常友好、非常称职的同事和经理——但我不想在这样一个国家变老。
I somebody from Romania, hungary or Poland moves to Germany to work in farms, as a plumber, or in a doctors consultancy, he has exactly the same rights as anybody else living there. Even if he is old or becomes ill or the economical situation turns very bad. He is part of the social contract, as a citizen. Not so in the UK.
I think the point would be that if someone from Canada, or India or Nigeria comes to the UK (or the EU) they are subject to immigration rules that EU nationals were not. Absent FoM that is equalised, the UK treats EU citizens in the a similar way that EU members have always treated non-EU citizens, that's not a breach of the social contract, there is a relatively clear path to residency, the ILR then citizenship.
By the way, I, born in Germany, worked in the UK as an physicist, and IT and robotics specialist for STFC. I had extremely nice and qualified colleagues and managers - but I did not want to get old in a country like that.
One that treats non-citizens differently to citizens? That's the default in the EU and the UK with some marginal exceptions (Irish nationals are not considered foreign in the UK etc..).
“如果有人从罗马尼亚，匈牙利或波兰搬到德国，在农场工作，当水管工，或当医生顾问，他和其他生活在那里的人会享有完全相同的权利。即使他老了，生病了，或者经济状况变得非常糟糕。作为公民，他是社会契约的一部分。但在英国却不是这样”
我认为重点是，如果加拿大、印度或尼日利亚人来到英国（或欧盟），他们要遵守欧盟公民不需要遵守的移民规定。没有平等的移动自由，英国对待欧盟公民的方式与欧盟成员国对待非欧盟公民的方式类似，这并没有违反社会契约，有一个相对明确的途径来获得居住权——先获得永久居留权，然后是公民身份。
“顺便说一下，我出生在德国，在英国工作，是一名物理学家，也是科学与技术设施理事会的IT和机器人专家。我有非常友好、非常称职的同事和经理——但我不想在这样一个国家变老”
你是说把非公民和公民区别对待吗？这是欧盟和英国的默认做法，但也有一些边际例外（爱尔兰人在英国不被视为外国人等等）。
Acceptable reasons, even if I don't agree with them, but I don't think the majority thought that way when voting Brexit.
The propaganda before the referendum, the very vocal brexit-supporters, the treatment of Europeans this year etc certainly give the impression most people considered Brexit equal to keeping out Europeans.
You and some others might not have a problem with Europeans working in the UK, but Europeans might. It even soured my last visit to the UK knowing that a large percentage of Brits basically voted "Europeans out". Pre-covid I used to visit at least once a year, now I prefer other countries. Reasonable? Perhaps not, but hard to get rid of the feeling of not being welcome
可以接受的理由，即使我不赞同，但我不认为大多数人在投票脱欧时是这么想的。
公投前的宣传、直言不讳的脱欧支持者、欧洲人今年受到的待遇等等，无疑给人留下了这样一种印象：大多数人认为脱欧等于把欧洲人拒之门外。
你和其他人可能对在英国工作的欧洲人没有意见，但欧洲人可能会有意见。这甚至让我上次走访英国的心情变糟，因为我知道，很大一部分英国人基本上投票支持“欧洲人滚出去”。在新冠疫情之前，我每年至少走访英国一次，现在我更喜欢去其他国家。合理吗？也许不是，但很难摆脱不受欢迎的感觉
This just isn't true. Did you ever stop to think the constant portrayal of Brexit as a xenophobic enterprise and Brexit voters as old racists may have been propaganda too? Stand on the street for 4 hours asking 300 people why they voted for Brexit until you get a sound bite that out of context sounds racist (or in some cases maybe is) but hardly representative of Brexit.
No one voted "Europeans out". It didn't happen. It's not personal. Stop taking it personally. No one is personally making you feel unwelcome in the UK. No one is making any specific European citizen unwelcome in the UK because of Brexit. You answered your own question perfectly so maybe don't doubt your own wisdom. It's entirely unreasonable.
这是不对的。你有没有想过，把英国脱欧不断描绘成排外情绪、把脱欧选民描绘成老种族主义者，可能也是一种宣传？站在街上4个小时，问300个人为什么他们投票支持英国脱欧，直到你听到一个回答，断章取义地听起来像是种族主义（或在某些情况下可能是），但这很难代表英国脱欧的真实民意。
没有人投票让“欧洲人滚出去”。它没有发生。这不是个人的议题。别再往心里去了。没有人会让你觉得自己在英国不受欢迎。没有人因为英国脱欧而让任何特定的欧洲公民在英国不受欢迎。你已经完美地回答了自己的问题，所以不要怀疑自己的智慧。这是完全不合理的。
It's not a desperation thing, it depends on wage disparity. This happens all over the world, lots of seasonal work is taken up by people knowing that it is temporary, and often uncomfortable, but if they have the opportunity to earn significantly more than they would if they stayed put.
这不是什么绝望的事情，这取决于工资差距。这种情况在世界各地都有发生，很多季节性工作都是由知道这分工作只是暂时的，而且通常感受不舒服（但如果他们有机会赚到比留在原地要多得多的钱的话）的人来做的。
No stop with this bullshit, its not all about the wages, maslows piramide explain it all.
The workers will rather choose security with slightly less pay than this shitshow risk.
别再胡说了，这不是工资的问题，马斯洛的金字塔已经解释了一切（译注：需求层次理论）。
工人们宁愿选择工资略低的安全保障也不愿冒这种狗屁风险。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
If that was true, nobody would ever do seasonal work.
Your argument hinges (completely) on pay only being slightly better, it collapses completely when pay is significantly more. Which I made clear in my original comment.
如果这是真的，就没有人会做季节性工作了。
你的论点（完全）取决于薪酬只是稍微好一点，但当薪酬明显更高时，这个理论就完全崩溃了。我在最初的评论中已经说得很清楚了。
I would think that, like the UK, the Dutch probably pulled in truckers on the net from the rest of the EU, not contributed them.
我认为，就像英国一样，荷兰可能从欧盟其他国家吸引了卡车司机，而不是贡献了他们。
We have all the same shortages, just a bit less at best because of EU migrant workers. The shortages exist everywhere, which is why the UK probably won't be that attractive to EU workers. But to say it's a mess they created themselves goes too far; it's not a UK issue, but a European problem. The UK didn't do anything special to put themselves in this situation, nor did we. But brexit does mean they lose out on the small patch that EU workers might provide.
我们也有同样的短缺问题，因为欧盟移民工人的缘故，我们的短缺问题最多只是好一点点。劳动力短缺无处不在，这就是为什么英国对欧盟工人的吸引力可能不会那么大。但是说这是他们自己造成的混乱就太过分了；这不是英国的问题，而是欧洲的问题。英国没有做任何特别的事情让自己陷入这种境地，我们也没有。但脱欧确实意味着他们失去了欧盟工人可能提供的那一小块供应。
There are thousands of people with this licence in the UK - the work is shit, the pay is shit - so the business groups lobby to get more cheap labour, so pay people properly and make it a job that is doable.
Not the Brexit catch many want it to be.
在英国，有成千上万的人拥有卡车驾照——但工作是垃圾，工资是垃圾——所以商业团体在游说要获得更多廉价劳动力，所以请合理支付工资，让它成为一份可行的工作。
这并不是许多人希望的英国脱欧。
Given that this fuel issue has been mostly created by mass hysteria (and NOT a shortage of fuel truck drivers), I'm pretty sure this is just a stunt from the Government without any actual meaning or reason behind it. Therefore the fact that it's temporary and might not work doesn't really matter to Boris as it will achieve its intended effect of calming people (or rather, tricking them).
考虑到目前的燃料短缺问题主要是由大众歇斯底里情绪造成的（而不是燃料卡车司机短缺），我确信这只是政府的一个噱头，没有任何实际意义或背后的深层原因。因此，它只是暂时的，可能不会起作用，这对鲍里斯来说并不重要，因为它会达到让人们平静（或者更确切地说，欺骗他们）的预期效果。
This guy was on Irish radio today, he talked a lot of sense but also explained how Poland and Lithuania abuse the system by bringing in workers from outside the EU and giving them papers so they can be used as even cheaper driving labour for Western Europe.
新闻里的这个人今天上了爱尔兰电台，他说了很多有意义的话，但也解释了波兰和立陶宛是如何滥用这个体系的，他们从欧盟以外引进工人，给他们发放证件，这样他们就可以被用作更便宜的西欧驾驶劳动力了。
I mean, they kind of have to do that.
The restrictions on population movements in the EU have been removed. Workers do the expected and move to where wages are highest. Poorer countries in the EU are bleeding workforce to wealthier ones, like Ireland. When that happens, the workers don't pay tax revenue to the poorer member, but to the wealthier.
But the EU hasn't federalized yet. And wealthier members aren't subsidizing education or child-rearing or covering pensions in poorer members. They have to cover it from the tax revenue from their remaining workforce.
Because of freedom of movement of labor, if Lithuania gives citizenship to some random person from outside the EU, that person is liable to move to a wealthier member, because then freedom of movement of labor would apply to them as well — and they don't even have past ties to Lithuania that might help keep them there.
So all poorer members can really do to build workforce that they can reliably retain for a period of time is to extend work visas. People with work visas don't have freedom of movement, so can't just head to another member.
And not just driving, but any form of work.
我想说，他们不得不这么做。
欧盟对人口流动的限制已经取消。工人按照预期工作，搬到工资最高的地方。欧盟中较贫穷的国家正在向较富裕的国家，比如爱尔兰，流失劳动力。当这种情况发生时，工人不会向较穷的成员纳税，而是向（工作所在的）较富裕的成员纳税。
但欧盟还没有实现联邦化。较富裕的成员不会补贴教育或抚养子女，也不支付较贫穷成员的养老金。他们必须从本国剩余劳动力的税收收入中支付。
由于劳动力的自由流动，如果立陶宛随机给某个欧盟以外的人提供公民身份，这个人就有可能移居到更富裕的成员国，因为这样一来，劳动力流动的自由也将适用于他们——他们甚至过去没有与立陶宛产生过联系，这可能有助于他们留在那里。
因此，所有贫穷成员真正能做的就是增加劳动力，让他们能够可靠地留住一段时间，就是延长工作签证。有工作签证的人没有行动自由，所以不能直接去其他成员国。
而且不只是开车，任何形式的工作都可以。
All jobs are more or less impermanent and temporary work visas are not unheard of.
People that wish to relocate longterm to the UK will not be taking them but others may just want a job now.
所有的工作或多或少都是非永久性的，临时工作签证也并非闻所未闻。
那些希望长期搬迁到英国的人不会接受这些工作，但其他人可能只是想现在找一份工作而已。（你不来别人也会来，总会有人愿意干的）
Well if someone in Bulgaria/Romania etc can choose to earn €400 there or let’s say £1700 here for the same job it’s honestly not that surprising that people will still come. A lot of Eastern European’s live very cheaply for a few years to save up as much as they can and then they’re able to buy a house back home. Good luck trying to do that on €400.
好吧，如果保加利亚/罗马尼亚等国的人可以选择在本国赚400欧元，或者在这里赚1700英镑（做同样的工作），说实话，人们仍然会来，这并不奇怪。很多东欧人在这里过几年非常节俭的生活，尽可能多地攒钱，然后他们就能在老家买房子了。希望你能靠400欧元的工资也做到这一点。
That's the thing. There is no "saving up for years". They want Europeans now to "save Christmas". It's 3 months of work and after that they get sent back to their home countries.
这才是重点。不存在“存几年的钱”。他们只是希望欧洲人现在帮他们“拯救圣诞节”。这只是三个月的工作，之后他们会被送回自己的国家。
Well 3 months here & saving most of their salary still equals 2 years there so honestly not a bad deal.
好吧，在这里干3个月，存下大部分工资，那也仍然相当于在本国干2年了，所以老实说，这也是一笔不错的交易。
It is a pretty bad deal when you consider that Germany and other high income EU countries are also dealing with a shortage of HGV drivers. Why deal with visas and job insecurity after a couple of months just to go to the UK?
考虑到德国和其他高收入的欧盟国家也面临着货车司机短缺的问题，这是一笔相当糟糕的交易。为什么要在几个月后处理签证手续并且伴随着工作不安全感，就为了去英国？
I’m sure a lot of them go to Germany as well but for a lot of people the U.K. is just easier because of the language and because a lot of people already have connections here since there are millions of Eastern European immigrants who have settled here since 2004.
我相信很多人也会去德国，但对很多人来说，英国更容易，因为那里的语言，而且很多人已经在这里建立了联系，因为自2004年以来，有数百万东欧移民定居在这里了。
How is that untrue of Germany? You can survive in Germany without knowing German and a lot of Eastern Europeans know German and have family there.
这些对德国怎么就不适用呢？你也可以在不懂德语的情况下在德国生存，而且很多东欧人懂德语，在那里有家人。