话题讨论:尼古拉·斯特金要求英国政府同意第二次苏格兰独立公投
Nicola Sturgeon asks UK government to agree to second Scottish independence referendum
译文简介
“苏格兰人压倒性地希望留在欧盟。决裂是不可避免的。”——天空新闻网评论。
正文翻译
Nicola Sturgeon asks UK government to agree to second Scottish independence referendum
-Nicola Sturgeon calls for a second referendum by the end of 2023, at a time when it's hoped the coronavirus pandemic is "under control", and the first minister wants to adopt an approach of "co-operation not confrontation".
尼古拉·斯特金要求英国政府同意第二次苏格兰独立公投
——尼古拉·斯特金呼吁在2023年底前举行第二次独立公投，届时新冠肺炎疫情有望“得到控制”，并且首席大臣希望采取“合作而不是对抗”的方式。
-Nicola Sturgeon calls for a second referendum by the end of 2023, at a time when it's hoped the coronavirus pandemic is "under control", and the first minister wants to adopt an approach of "co-operation not confrontation".
尼古拉·斯特金要求英国政府同意第二次苏格兰独立公投
——尼古拉·斯特金呼吁在2023年底前举行第二次独立公投，届时新冠肺炎疫情有望“得到控制”，并且首席大臣希望采取“合作而不是对抗”的方式。
(First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at her home in Glasgow, preparing for her SNP virtual conference speech.)
（首席大臣尼古拉·斯特金在格拉斯哥的家中准备她在苏格兰民族党视频会议上的演讲。）
新闻简介：
尼古拉·斯特金“本着合作精神”要求英国政府同意再次举行苏格兰独立公投。
在周一的苏格兰民族党会议上，苏格兰首席大臣告诉苏格兰民族党成员，“民主必须——而且也将会——获胜”，以允许这个国家就其未来进行另一次公投。
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I thought they just had one couple of years ago?
我记得他们几年前才刚投过一次来着？
Second breakfast
“第二顿早餐”
Yes, they had one, where one of the main arguments of the unxists was "if you leave the UK, you'll be kicked out of the EU, and you are not going to like that". And then Brexit happened and Scotland voted remain, and the unxists/Brexiteers told them "too bad you wanted to remain in the EU, because you previously voted to remain in the UK, so you must leave with the rest of us".
So, in the previous referendum they got to vote whether that wanted to remain in the UK within the EU. Now they'll get to vote whether they want to remain in the UK outside of the EU. Two completely different scenarios, so it's fair that there is a second referendum.
是的，他们有一个主要论点，其中统一派当时的一个主要论点是“如果你们离开了英国，你们将被踢出欧盟，你们不会喜欢那样的”。然后英国脱欧发生了，而苏格兰投票留欧，统一派/脱欧派告诉他们“你们想留在欧盟太糟糕了，因为你们之前投票留在英国，所以你们必须和我们其他人一起离开欧盟”。
所以，在之前的公投中，他们投票是决定是否希望留在英国。现在他们将投票决定是否留在“欧盟之外的英国”。两种完全不同的情况，所以举行第二次公投是公平的。
So there's a new referendum everytime the UK renegotiates its trading agreements?
所以每次英国重新谈判其贸易协议都要搞一次新的公投喽？
Sure, negotiating a trade agreement and leaving/joining the EU is exactly the same thing, good comparison
But anyway, why can't an important decision be voted regularly? If a generation from now the UK decides to rejoin the EU, why would they need to wait another generation to vote to leave again if some important change happens in a few years?
当然了，谈判贸易协定和离开/加入欧盟完全是一回事，挺好的比较
但是，为什么一个重要的决定就不能定期进行重新投票呢？如果从现在开始的一代人决定重新加入欧盟，但如果几年后情况发生了一些重大变化，他们凭什么非得等上一代人之后再投票决定退出欧盟呢？
So when the next indyref fails again will the matter be settled?
那么，当下一次独立公投再次失败时，这个问题就会得到解决吗？
For a while, I guess.
暂时解决，我觉得。
Then what’s the point?
It can wait a generation like Salmond said.
那又有什么意义呢？
我觉得它可以像萨蒙德说的那样“等上一代人”。
If they had waited a generation to have the Brexit referendum, you'd be right.
When the Scottish people voted to remain in the UK, they basically voted against change, they voted for things to continue exactly as they were. Brexit is the biggest change in the UK of the last 50 years, and the Scottish also voted against it. Today's UK is not what they voted for, they were scammed. Do you think it's a coincidence that the Scottish independence referendum happend before the Brexit referendum?
Imagine a couple signing a prenuptial agreement, because one of the spouses is considerably wealthier, so it is agreed only 10% of their future gains will contribute to matrimonial assets. Then, two years later, the wealthier spouse gives away most of their assets and businesses (as a gift to charity or whatever, they doesn't sell them), which is how they make money, making that 10% basically worthless.
Now your are saying the other spouse doesn't have enough reasons for a divorce, because the prenuptial agreement is still being honoured, the formerly wealthier spouse is still contributing 10% of their income to the matrimonial assets.
如果英国人等了一代人才举行脱欧公投，那你是对的。
当苏格兰人投票留在联合王国时，他们基本上是在投票反对改变，他们投票赞成一切保持原样。脱欧是英国近50年来最大的变化，苏格兰人也投了反对票。今天的英国不是他们投票支持的，他们被骗了。你认为苏格兰独立公投发生在英国脱欧公投之前是巧合吗？
想象一下，一对夫妇签署了一份婚前协议，因为其中一方相当富有，所以双方同意只将他们未来所得的10%将作为婚姻财产。然后，两年后，更富有的一方将他们的大部分资产和生意都捐了出去（作为捐赠给慈善机构或其他机构的礼物，不是卖掉它们），这就是他们“赚钱”的方式，使那“10%”基本上一文不值。
现在你的意思是另一方没有足够的理由离婚，因为婚前协议仍在履行，因为之前较富裕的一方仍将其“收入”的10%贡献给婚姻资产。
Things always change. Get over it.
事情总是在变化。你们得接受。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
You actually mean: changes I like are good, those I don't like are bad.
You don't want to allow the Scottish people to vote to see whether they've changed their opinion.
Anyway, I'm neither Scottish nor British, so I don't need to get over anything, as this has zero impact on my life. I just like to call things by their name: liers, scammers, etc.
你的意思是：我喜欢的变化是好的变化，我不喜欢的变化是坏的变化。
你不想让苏格兰人民通过投票来决定他们是否改变了自己的观点。
不管怎样，我既不是苏格兰人也不是英国人，所以我不需要“接受”任何事情，因为这对我的生活没有任何影响。我只是喜欢直呼其名：比如骗子，诈骗者等等。
One of the weirdest things about Scottish Nationalism is that they use their liberal policies (e.g free university, free feminine hygiene products, lower taxes, etc) as evidence of why they would be better off outside the UK... But these policies are only possible because of the UK. In isolation, Scotland had a deficit of 40 billion in 2020. That's 25%.
The SNP has made Scotland MORE dependent on England, not less.
And if Scotland voted to leave, it would become immediately obvious how bad a decision that was.
关于苏格兰民族主义最奇怪的事情之一是，他们用自己的自由政策（比如免费的大学，免费的女性卫生用品，更低的税收等等）来证明为什么他们离开英国会更好……但这些政策之所以成为可能，完全是因为有英国。单独来看，苏格兰在2020年的赤字为400亿英镑。占了25%。
苏格兰民族党让苏格兰更加依赖英格兰，而不是减少。
如果苏格兰公投决定脱离英国，那么这是一个多么糟糕的决定将变得显而易见。
As a Scot, I'm really worried about the prospects of independence. I'm in the process of looking to buy a home, but in the back of my mind, I'm a bit scared to actually invest my future in this country if we're going to end up being independent with a devastated economy.
作为一个苏格兰人，我真的很担心独立的前景。我正在考虑买一套房子，但在我内心深处，我有点害怕在这个国家投资我的未来，如果我们最终要独立成为一个满目疮痍的经济体的话。
Now imagine what you're thinking, but on the scale of universities, corporations, and banks. Even the possibility of a Scottish referendum is enough to stifle investment in Scotland. No one is going to start up a company there, or build a major factory, if they don't know what the country is even going to look like down the line. During the lead up to the 2014 vote, basically every major company in Scotland made plans to move to England, Ireland, or elsewhere in Europe. Including, ironically, the Royal Bank of Scotland.
现在想象一下你所想的东西，但放大到大学、公司和银行的层次上。就连苏格兰公投的可能性也足以抑制在苏格兰的投资。没有人会在那里开公司，或者建大工厂，如果他们不知道这个国家将来会是什么样子的话。在2014年公投之前，基本上苏格兰的每一家大公司都计划迁往英格兰、爱尔兰或欧洲其他地方。讽刺的是，连苏格兰皇家银行也在其中。
Most countries ran a large deficit in 2020 due to COVID. UK borrowing is astronomical and any discussion about Scottish budgets should be compared to UK deficits. It's much more fair and reasonable to use 2019 figures across the board.
2020年，由于新冠疫情，大多数国家都出现了巨额赤字。英国的借款是天文数字，任何关于苏格兰预算的讨论都应该与英国的赤字进行比较。全面使用2019年的数据（译注：链接）要公平合理得多。
Ok, well if we look at 2018 - 2019... it's not much better. Scotland makes up around 9% of the UK population, but made up fully half of the UK's debt for that year. Scotland had a deficit of 8.6%. To put that percentage into context, the total UK deficit was 1.1% but that goes down to 0.5% if we exclude Scotland. No country in Europe had a deficit as big as Scotland in that year.
In other words, the UK isn't an anchor holding Scotland down. It's the life preserver.
好吧，就算我们看看2018-2019年……情况也好不到哪里去。苏格兰人口约占英国人口的9%，但却占了英国当年债务的一半。苏格兰的赤字为8.6%。把这个百分比放在一起来看，英国的总赤字是1.1%，但如果不包括苏格兰，赤字会下降到0.5%。那一年，欧洲没有一个国家的赤字像苏格兰那么大的。
换句话说，联合王国并不是拖住苏格兰的锚。而是它的救生圈。
Worth noting that Scotland doesn't even have the largest deficit of the 10 economic regions in the UK. The West Midlands and North East have higher deficits than Scotland. Every region of the UK runs at a deficit apart from London and the South East.
值得注意的是，在英国10个经济区中，苏格兰的赤字甚至不是最大的。西米德兰兹郡和东北地区的赤字高于苏格兰。除了伦敦和英国东南部，英国所有地区都出现了赤字。
That is a little rich coming from a friend and ally that took Scotland's oil and gave it at a knock down price to American oil companies then pocketed the tax and licensing income. Had Scotland set up a wealth fund based on that oil revenue every person in Scotland would now have a secure future. Also. As an EU member based on the edged of Europe but with a similar attitude to regulation and Tax that Ireland has. Scotland would be far better placed than the UK to attract foreign investment. Also the UK has decided to kill itself and who wants to hang around with a suicidal loony. Best to leave them to it and not get involved.
从一个拿走了苏格兰的石油，并将其以低价卖给了美国石油公司，然后将税收和许可收入装入了自己的腰包的朋友和盟友那里只能得到很少的财富。如果苏格兰建立一个基于石油收入的财富基金，那么现在每个苏格兰人都会有一个安全的未来。而且，作为一个以欧洲边缘为基础，但对监管和税收的态度与爱尔兰相似的欧盟成员国，在吸引外国投资方面，苏格兰要比英国有利得多。而且英国也决定作死了，谁想和一个有作死倾向的疯子在一起呢。最好让他们自己去作死，不要去管他们。
Had Scotland set up a wealth fund based on that oil revenue every person in Scotland would now have a secure future
Don't be absurd. Scotland isn't fucking Norway. It's a small part of a big country. That oil is not the sole property of Scotland, it is in British territory and belongs to the British. There is no such thing as Scottish territory or Scottish international water.
It's ironic that you're fine with a 'mine for me, yours for you' approach when it comes to Scottish oil wealth, but when we start talking about Scotland's massive debt, which England covers the cost of, suddenly you're all about sharing.
As an EU member based on the edged of Europe but with a similar attitude to regulation and Tax that Ireland has. Scotland would be far better placed than the UK to attract foreign investment.
Well literally every expert, bank, company and business that has weighed in on this since 2014 strongly disagrees with you.
Also the UK has decided to kill itself and who wants to hang around with a suicidal loony.
The UK isn't the anchor weighing Scotland down. We're the fucking life raft.
“如果苏格兰建立一个基于石油收入的财富基金，那么现在每个苏格兰人都会有一个安全的未来”
不要荒谬。苏格兰不是tmd挪威。这是一个大国的一小部分。石油并不是苏格兰唯一的财产，它是英国领土，属于英国人。没有所谓的“苏格兰领土”或“苏格兰国际水域”。
讽刺的是，当谈到苏格兰的石油财富时，你可以接受“我的属于我，你的属于你”的方式，但当我们开始谈论苏格兰的巨额债务时（英格兰承担了这些债务），突然之间，你要求大家一起分担了（而不是全要回去）。
“而且，作为一个以欧洲边缘为基础，但对监管和税收的态度与爱尔兰相似的欧盟成员国，在吸引外国投资方面，苏格兰要比英国有利得多”
事实上，自2014年以来，每一位专家、银行、公司和企业都在强烈反对你的观点。
“而且英国也决定作死了，谁想和一个有作死倾向的疯子在一起呢”
英国并不是拖累苏格兰的锚。我们是该死的救生圈。
Wow...people think leaving your largest trading partner by far is a great idea when its Scotland.
哇哦……人们认为离开你最大的贸易伙伴是一个好主意。
One of her own advisors told her that Scottish independence could be ‘Brexit times ten’. That was probably a best case scenario. The woman is deluded.
斯特金自己的一位顾问告诉她，苏格兰独立的后果可能是“英国脱欧的十倍”。这可能还是最好的情况了。这个女人被骗了。
The thing is unlike with Brexit Scotland has the option of alternative trading partner - one an order of magnitude larger than England.
Trade won’t realign painlessly or overnight but there’s a far better medium to long term route back to prosperity than Brexit offers. It also beats the hell out of staying in a unx that keeps on voting in increasingly right wing Tory governments that Scotland has rejected at the ballot box for the last seventy years. And also one that now faces the prospect of food shortages - not really a terribly enticing prospect.
The real reason is that Scotland and England want very different things and to go in very different directions. The differences are now irreconcilable.
与英国脱欧不同的是，苏格兰可以选择另一个贸易伙伴——一个比英格兰大一个数量级的贸易伙伴。
贸易不会在一夜之间毫无痛苦地重新调整完毕，但有一条比英国脱欧更能带来繁荣的中长期路径。它也击败了留在一个继续在越来越右翼的保守党政府中投票的联盟——苏格兰在过去70年的投票中一直拒绝右翼保守党政府。同时也面临着粮食短缺的前景——这并不是一个非常诱人的前景。
真正的原因是苏格兰和英格兰想要的东西和走向的方向完全不同。而这些分歧目前是不可调和的。
Hold a referendum. Vote NO.
Hold a referendum. Vote NO.
Hold a referendum. Vote NO.
Hold a referendum. Vote NO.
Hold a referendum. Vote YES. No more referendums.
The UK needs to hold a referendum asking people if they want to rejoin the EU.
举行全民公投。投票结果：不独立。
举行全民公投。投票结果：不独立。
举行全民公投。投票结果：不独立。
举行全民公投。投票结果：不独立。
举行全民公投。投票结果：独立。好了，公投结束。
英国有需要举行公投，询问人们是否想要重新加入欧盟。
The UK needs to hold a UK-wide referendum on whether to ban independence referendums. They're banned in the US and that seems to have worked a lot better.
英国需要在全英国范围内举行公投，决定是否禁止独立公投。它们在美国是被禁止的，似乎这样效果好得多。
Yep. The US is the best example of a functional government
是的。美国是功能性政府的最佳典范（反讽）
While I agree people should have a choice.. they had it. And the SNP agreed it was a one off, a once in a generation thing.
Like Brexit. Can’t just have another go because it wasn’t the result you wanted
虽然我赞同人们应该有选择…他们有过选择。苏格兰民族党当时也认为这是独一无二的，一代人只搞一次。
就像脱欧。不能因为这不是你想要的结果就再搞一次
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
I don't understand this argument. I can't see an issue with repeated testing. In my opinion, it's more democratic to ask the population more frequently to ensure policies align with public opinion.
People say 'it's a once in a generation thing' but what makes that the case? It seems arbitrary to me.
Plus before the first referendum, the Better Together campaign told Scottish voters that voting No to independence would secure Scotland's place in the EU, then two years later they commenced their campaign to leave the EU, and Scotland got taken out of the EU at the behest of the rest of the UK's decision, despite the fact that Scottish voters voted to remain approximately 2:1. You can see how that may effect the voting intention of a second referendum. Plus with seven years of new young voters - a demographic who are becoming far less right wing than older demographics - I can imagine that the voting intention has shifted significantly.
I fully understand the economic argument against Scottish independence, it makes sense, but the argument that a referendum is a 'once in a generation' event seems arbitrary and further pushes the idea that Scotland is under control by Westminster, rather than part of a unx of equals as it is described.
Just my thoughts, no offence meant. I'm up for discussion.
我不明白这个论点。我看不出重复搞公投有什么问题。在我看来，更民主的做法是更频繁地询问民众以确保政策与民意一致。
人们说“这是一代人搞一次的事”，但凭什么呢？在我看来，这太武断了。
而且，在第一次公投之前，“在一起更好”运动告诉苏格兰选民，投票反对独立将确保苏格兰在欧盟的地位，两年后，他们开始了脱欧运动，苏格兰在英国其他地区的裹挟下一起退出了欧盟，尽管事实上苏格兰选民以2:1的比例选择了要留在欧盟。你可以看出这可能会如何影响第二次公投的投票意向。另外，又增加了7年的新年轻选民，我可以想象选民的投票意向已经发生了显著的变化。
我完全理解反对苏格兰独立的经济观点，它是有道理的，但公投是“一代人搞一次”的事件的说法似乎武断了，进一步推动了“苏格兰在威斯敏斯特的控制下，而不是像它所描述的平等联盟的一部分”的想法。
只是我的想法，无意冒犯。我愿意讨论。
Besides the fact the last vote was set up on it being a one off and both sides agreed to that, you couldn’t just “have another vote”. It would involve costly campaigns on both sides. And let’s face it - there are more pressing things to deal with at governmental level at the moment. It would be a disaster to Scotland to also throw independence in the mix.
I’m also tired of the brexit narrative. If you vote to remain part of the UK then you vote to go along with the majority of the UK on votes. As Scotland did. They can’t just be part of the UK when it suits them and then chuck the toys out the pram when something goes against their wishes.
There is no way Scotland is getting admitted to the EU as a separate independent nation. None at all. You’re kidding yourself if you think the likes of Spain and France will allow that. So what does the EU have to do with anything? Scotland will still be out of the EU, just out of the UK too.
I understand why Scotland may be annoyed the UK left but I don’t understand how a referendum will help that. Revenge? Stupid really.
That’s before you even discuss the fact Scotland doesn’t raise enough money internally to actually run the country. It’s just nonsense. Everyone knows it’s nonsense. She is obsessed with getting the vote, while there are major major problems within Scotland which could be addressed instead. There is no plan to leave the UK. No currency. Not enough taxes to pay for public services. Etc etc.
但事实的最后一次投票是一次性的，而且双方都赞同结果，你不能只是要求“再投一次票”。这对双方来说都需要付出高昂的代价。让我们面对现实吧——目前在政府层面有更多紧迫的事情需要处理。如果苏格兰还想独立，那将是一场灾难。
我也厌倦了英国脱欧的叙事。如果你投票留在英国，那么你就是投票支持英国的大多数人。苏格兰就这么投了。他们不能只在适合自己的时候成为英国的一部分，然后在有什么事情违背他们的意愿时就“把玩具从婴儿车里扔出去”。
苏格兰不可能以独立国家的身份加入欧盟。根本不可能。如果你认为西班牙和法国会允许这样搞，那你是在自欺欺人。那么，欧盟和独立又有什么关系呢？苏格兰就算独立了又仍将脱离欧盟，只是再徒增脱离英国而已。
我理解苏格兰为什么会对英国脱欧感到恼火，但我不明白公投会有什么帮助。是报复吗？愚蠢，真的。
这还是在你讨论苏格兰内部没有筹集到足够的资金来管理国家之前的问题。独立只是扯淡。每个人都知道这是扯淡。斯特金痴迷于获得选票，而不是专注于那些苏格兰内部可以解决的重大问题。目前根本没有脱离英国的“计划”。没有货币。没有足够的税收来支付公共服务。等等等等。
This seems shortsighted. This would be a drain on the citizens of Scotland as they trade with the U.K much more than the E.U and competing against mainland E.U countries without the advantages of the U.K would be harder not easier.
这似乎是目光短浅的。独立将成为苏格兰公民的负担，因为他们与英国的贸易远多于与欧盟的贸易，与没有英国优势的情况下与欧盟大陆国家竞争将更加困难，而不是更容易。
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I would let them have their referendum, Scots do not know how good they have it free education even to University Level, Free Prescxtions for Medicine whereas I still have to pay for it and much lower taxes compared to those that live in England, NI and Wales. Im that sick of the SNP and this anti english rhetoric that I would happily take a UK referendum on us allowing the Scots to remain in the unx.
我会让他们进行公投，苏格兰人不知道他们现在的日子有多好，他们有免费的教育，甚至到大学水平，免费的医药处方，而我仍然需要花钱买这些，而且与英格兰、新南威尔士和威尔士的人相比，他们的税收要低得多。我受够了苏格兰民族党和这种反英格兰的言论，我很乐意就是否允许苏格兰人留在英国举行公投。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
I'm not from the UK, but I'm getting really tired of hearing about this Scottish independence pipe dream. Settle it once and for all and get over it. I've got an idea, how about a referendum on kicking Scotland out of the unx? Everyone but Scotland gets to vote.
"Should Scotland be kicked out of the unx?"
If yes Scotland gets yeeted out of the unx completely and immediately and is told to figure it all out for themselves. Have the army secure the border, and cut them off from everything.
我不是英国人，但我真的厌倦了听到苏格兰独立的白日梦。一劳永逸地解决它，忘记它。我有个主意，就把苏格兰踢出联合王国举行公投怎么样？除了苏格兰，所有人都有投票权。
“苏格兰应该被逐出联合王国吗？”
如果答案是肯定的，那么苏格兰就会立即完全退出联合王国，并被告知要自己独自解决问题。派军队守住边境，并切断他们与外界的联系。
Once in a generation my arse. All these politicians are the same.
Qnmd“一代人搞一次”。所有这些政客都是一丘之貉。
That was before Brexit. Situations change. The Scots overwhelmingly wanted to stay in the EU. The breakup is inevitable.
那是在英国脱欧之前。现在情况变化了。苏格兰人压倒性地希望留在欧盟。决裂是不可避免的。
Of all the anti independence arguments this is the most braindead as it relies of being so dumb as to not understand the meanings of common expressions. Or the willful refusal to do so.
So, either you're dumb or you're arguing in bad faith.
在所有反对独立的论点中，这是最愚蠢的，因为它依赖于愚蠢到无法理解常见表达的意思。或者故意拒绝这样做。
所以，要么你是笨蛋，要么你是在恶意争辩。
Hopefully Ireland will follow suit and finally get the independence it deserves like many other countries before
希望爱尔兰也能效仿，最终获得它应得的独立，就像其他许多已经获得独立的国家一样
Think you'll find Ireland is independent. Northern Ireland is a part of the UK because that was the will of its people a century ago and still is today.
我想你会发现爱尔兰本来就是独立的。北爱尔兰之所以成为英国的一部分，是因为这是一个世纪前当地人民的意愿，今天依然如此。