如果自恋是一种精神障碍，为什么我们要把自恋者当作垃圾来对待，而不是帮助他们呢？
If narcissism is a disorder, why do we treat narcissists like garbage instead of helping them?
译文简介
网友：如果他们不愿意帮助自己，你就无法帮助他们。自恋者不会认为有理由去寻求帮助，他们在自己的思想中认为自己是正常的。需要帮助的是你，因为你在试图帮助他们时抨击他们并评判他们......
正文翻译
If narcissism is a disorder, why do we treat narcissists like garbage instead of helping them?
如果自恋是一种障碍，为什么我们要把自恋者当作垃圾来对待，而不是帮助他们呢？
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, Northern-Proto European. Viking. Diagnosed NPD+AvPD
Amber Heard is diagnosed with BPD as primary diagnosis and NPD+ASPD traits as secondary diagnosis from what I recall reading in the court documents during her legal battles with Johnny Depp, her abuse victim.
Johnny Depp as many people in the world thought that if he just loved her enough she would change and turn into a healthy, kind and wonderful being.
He thought that just if he loved her enough he could save her from herself, all he saw was a damsel in distress and not a cunning, calculating predator that was about to engulf and devour him.
Because neurotypical people do not have clinical background in psychology, they dont read the research or study the literature on personality disorders.
Instead they rely on their emotions to guide them, emotions such as love and hope.
Johnny Depp loved her and hoped that if he would just prove to her that he was there for her, then she would change.
That of course did not happen, it never happens if we are talking about an individual with a personality disorder because it is a part of whom they are at their core.
You cant change people. You cant cure personality disorders.
安柏赫德（《海王》女主角），从我记得的在她与约翰尼-德普（她的虐待受害者）打官司期间在法庭文件中读到的内容来看，她初次被诊断为BPD（边缘型人格），二次诊断为具有NPD（自恋型人格）+ASPD（反社会人格）特征。
约翰尼-德普和世界上许多人一样，认为只要他足够爱她，她就会改变，变成一个健康、善良和美好的人。
他认为，只要他足够爱她，他就能用自己的手将她拯救出来，他所看到的只是一个陷入困境的少女，而不是一个狡猾的、精打细算的、即将把他吞噬的掠夺者。
因为神经正常的人一般没有心理学方面的临床背景，他们不会阅读关于人格障碍的研究或研究文献。
相反，他们依靠自己的情感来指导自己，如给予爱和希望等情感。
约翰尼-德普爱她，希望如果他能向她证明他在她身边，那么她就会改变。
这当然不会发生，如果我们谈论的是一个有人格障碍的人，这永远不会发生，因为这就是他们的核心的一部分。
你不可能改变人。你无法治愈人格障碍。
A romantic partner is a romantic partner, not your patient that you have to save. These roles should never be mixed up. Anytime someone tells you “I cant live without you, if you ever leave me i will end my life” then the first thing you must do is leave, you are being set up for an extremely unhealthy relationship where you will be held emotional hostage and your anxiety levels with spike as the relationship goes on. The person is putting you in an unfair position where you are supposedly the sole source of this persons happiness and will to live. Which means they are severely sick and should not be in a relationship. They need to find purpose in life in themself, not another partner. That brings about a dependency and emotional neediness that their partner cant possible deliver. They need professional help.
另一方面，一个人（患者）可以在治疗的帮助下学会以不那么表现出功能障碍的方式行事，但这是有执照的、有能力的、在这个领域有多年学术背景的治疗师的工作，而不是配偶/爱人的工作。
浪漫伴侣就是浪漫伴侣，而不是你必须拯救的病人。这些角色永远不应该被混为一谈。任何时候有人告诉你"我不能没有你，如果你离开我，我将结束我的生命"，那么你必须做的第一件事就是离开，你被牵扯到了一个极其不健康的关系，你将被作为情感的人质，你的焦虑水平将随着关系的发展而激增。这个人把你放在一个不公平的位置上，“据说”你是这个人幸福和生活意愿的唯一来源。这意味着他们有严重的疾病，所以不应该与其处在一个关系中。他们需要在自己身上找到生活的目标，而不是在另一个伴侣上。这带来了他们对伴侣不可能提供的依赖性和情感需求。他们需要专业的帮助。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Even tho I have substancial psychiatric issues , I have never discussed psychology or my mental problems with a partner, because I have a therapist for that.
So basically, all you can do to help them is to support them if they decide to seek help from someone that can actually help them. Dont try to be their primary helper/caregiver, you’re only going to get burned.
As for treating others with garbage, noone should be treated as garbage. Not even criminals.
In Norway our prisons was founded on the american prison system, and we had similar problems with prison gangs, prison violence, drugs and high reincarnation rates (upwards of 75% which is the same in USA today).
The prisoners were treated like garbage, like worms, the correctional officers were there to disrespect the prisoners and to punish them, make them suffer.
你不应该在恋爱关系中承担扶纸上心理学家的角色。
即使我有实质性的精神问题，我也从未与伴侣讨论过心理学或我的精神问题，因为我有一个治疗师负责这个问题。
所以基本上，你能帮助他们的就是支持他们，如果他们决定向能够真正帮助他们的人寻求帮助。不要试图成为他们的主要帮助者/照顾者，你只会被烧伤。
至于用对待垃圾一样的态度对待他人，没有人应该被当作垃圾对待。即使是罪犯也不行。
在挪威，我们的监狱是在美国监狱系统的基础上建立的，我们也有类似的问题，如监狱帮派、监狱暴力、毒品和高再犯率（高达75%以上，这在今天的美国也是如此）。
囚犯们被当作垃圾，像虫子一样，管教人员在那里不尊重囚犯，惩罚他们，让他们受苦。
So we realized that something needed to change. We went away from seeing prisons as punishment and instead see it as rehabilitation.
One of those methods was to divert away from the old treatment of treating criminals that garbage of society and instead treat them with dignity, respect, kindness.
And now reincarnation rates have dropped from 75% to a staggering 20–25% and in our super max prison there has been only 1 reported incident of violence since 2014! That’s actually crazy. And we dont have gangs in prisons anymore.
Our prisons is no longer schools for criminals, instead they are place where you can get help to get your life back on the right track, get an education, learn to love yourself and find value in yourself.
不需要天才级的智商就能意识到，进一步戕害一个已经走在错误的人生道路上的人，是不会产生任何积极的结果的。这就是为什么挪威的监狱在2000年之前一直被称为"罪犯的学校"，进入监狱的人在出狱后会更加愤怒，更加不正常，更加倾向于犯罪，一如他们在进入监狱之前的样子。
因此，我们意识到，需要改变一些东西。我们不再将监狱视为惩罚，而是将其视为康复。
其中一个方法是改变过去把罪犯当作社会垃圾的做法，而是以尊严、尊重和善意对待他们。
而现在再犯率已经从75%下降到惊人的20-25%，而且在我们超级大的监狱里，自2014年以来只有1起报告的暴力事件！这实际上是很疯狂的。而且我们的监狱里不再有帮派了。
我们的监狱不再是罪犯的学校，相反，它们是你可以得到帮助的地方，让你的生活回到正确的轨道，获得教育，学会爱自己，找到自己的价值。
Treating people like garbage = bad, makes the person a worse person.
Treating people with respect and dignity = good, makes the person want to improve themself and work towards betterment.
One example:
I watched a prison documentary about Halden Prison in Norway, where they followed an afro-american inmate. He had immigrated to Norway from USA and was a career criminal involved in drugs and violence.
He told us that all his life he had been in and out of american prisons, everytime he left prison he was worse then when he entered it. Because everyone would always treat him like garbage and not as a human.
That was until he entered a norwegian prison and all the correctional officers befriended him, showered him with belief in him, helped him get an education inside the prison walls, they learned him how to cook and make food.
So he became a professional chef inside the prison. Upon his release he turned his life around 100% and became a productive member of society because he wouldnt want to let down all the officers that believed in him and treated him well.
He started up his own restaurant and has been living a life without crime for 5 years.
So what I am saying here is, try your best to treat others as you want to be treated yourself. If you are kind to others they are more likely to want to be kind to you aswell.
因此，总结一下:
像对待垃圾一样对待一个人=不好，会使一个人成为更坏的人。
以尊重和尊严待一个人=好，使这个人想改善自己，并为改善而努力。
有一个例子。
我看了一部关于挪威哈尔登监狱的纪录片，他们跟踪了一个非洲裔美国人囚犯。他从美国移民到挪威，是一个参与毒品和暴力的职业罪犯。
他告诉我们，他一生都在美国的监狱里进进出出，每次离开监狱时，他都比进入监狱时更糟糕。因为每个人总是把他当作垃圾，不把他当人看。
直到他进入挪威监狱，所有的管教人员都与他交好，对他充满信心，帮助他在监狱里接受教育，他们教他如何烹饪和制作食物。
于是他在监狱里成为一名专业厨师。出狱后，他百分之百地扭转了自己的生活，成为社会上有生产力的一员，因为他不想让所有相信他并善待他的官员失望。
他开始了自己的餐馆，并在5年内过上了没有犯罪的生活。
因此，我在这里想说的是，尽量以你希望自己被对待的方式对待他人。如果你善待他人，他们也更有可能想善待你。
You cant help anyone if they won't help themselves. A narc will not see a reason for getting help, they are normal in their own minds. Its you that needs help for bashing them and judging them when you try to help.
NPD is a serious disorder that too many are far too uneducated about. The lack of knowledge makes it impossible to see the detrimental effects a single person inflicts on just about anyone who is or was in their life.
Its also really hard for a victim to grasp the concept of the abuse while in its midst. Its even harder to tell anyone exactly what just occurred. Its pretty damn near impossible to belive a full grown adult can do so many heinous deeds without being fully aware and lack the control to stop.
如果他们不愿意帮助自己，你就无法帮助他们。自恋者不会认为有理由去寻求帮助，他们在自己的思想中认为自己是正常的。需要帮助的是你，因为你在试图帮助他们时抨击他们并评判他们。
NPD是一种严重的疾病，很多人缺乏对其的教育。知识的缺乏使得他们无法看到一个人对他们生活中的任何人所造成的有害影响。
受害者也很难在虐待过程中掌握虐待的概念。它甚至更难告诉别人到底发生了什么。它几乎不可能相信一个成年人会在没有充分意识到的情况下做这么多令人发指的事情，而且缺乏控制力来停止这种做法。
Great and interesting answer Christian. Jonny Depp probably had no idea that Amber had a personality disorder. That’s the trouble, unless you have come across personality disorders before you just don’t know what you are dealing with. If you love someone your love is telling you to give to that person and do your best for them. Unfortunately if they have a PD you often get badly burned.
Good to see you back!
伟大而有趣的回答，克里斯蒂安。约翰尼-德普可能不知道安柏有人格障碍。这就是问题所在，除非你以前接触过人格障碍，否则你根本不知道自己在面对什么。如果你爱一个人，你的爱就会告诉你要为这个人付出，为他们尽心尽力。不幸的是，如果他们有人格障碍，你往往会被严重地烧伤。
很高兴看到你回来!
Yea that is true. And on top of that, most people have this stereotypical and generalized idea that all women are caring, nurturing and empathic people, so even if the face of opposite evidence they cling to this stereotype. People see what they want to see.
“she’s just a bit lost, but with my love she’ll come around”. It is as you say hard for people to realize that the other person is not who they were thought to be.
Thank you!
是的，没错。除此之外，大多数人都有这样的刻板印象，即认为所有的女性都是有爱心、有教养、有同情心的人，所以即使面对相反的证据，他们还是坚持这种刻板印象。人们只想看到他们想看到的东西。
"她只是有点迷失，但在我的爱下，她会回心转意的"。正如你所说，人们很难意识到另一个人其实不是他们所认为的那样。
谢谢！
That may all be true about Amber, but isn’t it true that Depp has alcohol and possibly drug issues that also lead to his bad behavior at times as well? In other words, they were a doomed couple from the start. If he wasn’t a bit off himself, he would not have chosen her despite her seemingly surface good qualities as he would have more quickly recognized she wasn’t a normal person and fleed the relationship quickly. He may have gotten trauma bonded by her I suppose. That may have led to him not being able to flee sooner.
关于安柏的说法可能都是事实，但德普不也有着因为酗酒和可能的毒品问题，导致他有时的不良行为吗？换句话说，他们从一开始就是臭味相投天生一对。如果他自己不是有点不正常，他就不会选择她，尽管她表面上看起来很好，但是他能很快地认识到她不是一个正常人，并迅速逃离这段关系。我想，他可能已经被她的创伤束缚住了。这可能导致他不能更早地逃离。
All of Depp’s exes has claimed him to be a sweet and kind soul that would never harm anyone regardless of substance addictions.
All of Amber’s exes says she is violent and manipulative and cruel.
I’ve listened to the audio records of Amber and Depp and there is nothing there that would indicate that Depp had any blame.
All he did was try to run away to safety everytime Amber was beating him mentally or physically.
Amber even said “johnny you cant run away everytime i punch you, you know i have to get it out of my system, stop being a coward, i need this , you cant run away everytime. you are a man you can take it”
德普所有的前任都声称他是一个可爱和善良的灵魂，无论药物成瘾与否都不会伤害任何人。
安柏所有的前任都说她有暴力倾向，善于操纵人心和残忍。
我听了安柏和德普的录音，没有任何东西可以表明德普有任何值得责备的地方。
他所做的只是在每次安柏从精神上或身体上虐待他时，试图逃跑到安全地带。
安柏甚至说：“约翰尼，你不能每次我打你都逃跑，你知道我必须把它从我的身体中释放出来，不要再做一个懦夫，我需要这个，你不能每次都逃跑。”
Even if his exes said he was great (although PR for him is very helpful as wealthy as he is), but that doesn’t mean he has not become advanced in his state of alcohol drug abuse to the point of not thinking too clearly and his overall mental emotional state is compromised. That is all I am really saying. A mentally healthy person would have left the situation much sooner it seems.
即使他的前任都说他很好（虽然可能是他的公关起了作用，因为他很富有），但这并不意味着他酗酒吸毒的状态没有发展到让他无法思考得太清楚以及让他的整体精神情绪状态受到损害。这就是我真正要说的。一个心理健康的人早就抽身离开了。
I stayed for 20 years. It's a total mindf***. And I do not use substances at all. Youa re making judgements based on a situation you have no idea what it is like to be in apparently and that's normal. What I am saying is this happens everyday to people who don't drink or use drugs and they stay alot longer than Depp did.
我在一个患有此症的人身边呆了20年。这完全是一种精神摧残。而且我根本不沉迷药物。显然你正在根据你不了解的情况做出判断，这（么做）是很正常的。我想说的是，这种情况每天都在发生在那些不喝酒或不吸毒的人身上，他们比德普呆得更久。
I read those prison studies recently for a paper. Its astonishing what Norway has done. And its a model the world would do well to pay attention to. Unfortunately, in the US, prisons are for profit and make millionaires in a disgusting way. That has to change first.
我最近为一篇论文阅读了一些关于监狱的研究。挪威所做的一切让人吃惊。它是世界上一个值得关注的模式。不幸的是，在美国，监狱是为了盈利，并以令人作呕的方式制造百万富翁。这一点必须首先改变。
, Counselor, GNarc's golden kid, NPD/BPD/PTSD experiences
Well, they do often devastate/damage others…financially, physically, mentally/emotionally, etc.
Narcissism is a spectrum. We all carry some amount of narcissism, and some amount is both healthy and necessary. Yes, people who fall on the highest of end of the spectrum are considered to be disordered.
Those with NPD are in great need of help, but they are to be helped by trained mental health professionals. Unless you are a trained mental health professional…please, do not try to help these folks. There will be no light at the end of the tunnel. Your efforts will not be appreciated and you will exhaust yourself.
You cannot help someone who is not truly open to being helped, and those with NPD tend to live in denial and delusion. It may be possible to force someone into therapy (and some with NPD may seek therapy when/if they hit rock bottom), but PDs are notoriously difficult to treat (and therapy can be very expensive).
In addition, the individual with NPD would have to be willing to take a deep dive into him/herself, and may choose to leave therapy for this reason.
Those with NPD often live with additional conditions (i.e. anxiety/depressive disorders, addictions, etc), so some may eventually seek help for these additional conditions. They may fall through the cracks, unless the mental health professional is able to identify PDs.
Sure, I have compassion for those who live with PDs (and would love for those who have PDs to be forced into therapy), but I also understand the ways in which they unintentionally/intentionally hurt others.
I was “parented" by a narcissist and have experienced narcissistic relationships. Do I pity my father? Do I pity the men who I have been romantically involved with? YES. Do I also carry anger? YES. DO I HAVE A REASON TO SPEAK ILL OF NARCISSISTIC HUMAN BEINGS? YES.
因为他们确实经常破坏/损害他人......在经济上、身体上、精神上/情感上，等等。
自恋是一个光谱。我们都有一定程度的自恋，而这是健康和必要的。是的，只有落在光谱最高处的人被认为是紊乱的。
那些有NPD的人非常需要帮助，但他们应该由受过训练的心理健康专家来帮助。除非你是受过训练的心理健康专家......否则请不要试图帮助这些人。隧道的尽头不会有光。你的努力不会得到赞赏，你只会让自己筋疲力尽。
你无法帮助那些不是真正愿意接受帮助的人，而那些有NPD的人往往生活在否认和妄想中。 也许有可能强迫某人接受治疗（一些有NPD的人可能会在他们跌入谷底时寻求治疗），但PD是出了名的难以治疗（而且治疗可能非常昂贵）。
此外，患有NPD的人必须愿意深入了解他/她自己，而他们可能因此选择远离治疗。
那些有NPD的人往往生活在其他状况下（即焦虑/抑郁症，成瘾等），所以有些人最终可能会寻求对这些额外状况的帮助。 除非心理健康专家能够顺带识别出PD，否则他们可能只会落入深渊。
当然，我很同情那些患有PD的人（也很希望那些患有PD的人强迫自己去接受治疗），但我也理解他们无意/故意伤害他人的方式。
我被一个自恋者"养大"，也经历过自恋的关系。我怜悯我的父亲吗？我怜悯那些与我有过恋爱关系的男人吗？是的。我也带着愤怒吗？是的。我有理由说自恋的人的坏话吗？是的。
, former Counselor/ Support Encouragement at Beside Still Waters
To be honest with you that is a very good question. Based on my experience it is not that we want to treat them like garbage it is that they continuously lie and manipulate us in such a overwhelmingly outlandish way it seems she warrant that kind of reaction. Otherwise if they were to at least take it down a couple of notches and behave normal some of the time. they would not get such a bad rap and people that see it for what it is. And in my opinion narcissism is among the top worst financial condition that actively affect the lives of so many people like an avalanche. Intensity is rarely confronted or even acknowledged everybody just seems to brush it off . they just instinctively except the fact that whoever it is it's just an asshole. Which is sometimes a case however the effects can be lessened. I don't know it just depends on the people around them. if they're surround themselves with weak people then they're going to always have their way and nobody's ever going to say anything however it just takes the one strong willed person to cut that shyte short. My advice, try to be that one person.
老实说，这是个非常好的问题。根据我的经验，并不是我们想把他们当成垃圾，而是他们不断地撒谎并以一种极其古怪的方式操纵我们，似乎她值得这种对待。否则，如果他们至少能降低几个档次，在某些时候表现得正常一点，他们就不会得到如此糟糕的评价，人们也不会看到它的本质。在我看来，自恋是最糟糕的状况之一，像雪崩一样影响着许多人的生活。人们很少正视甚至承认自恋，他们只是本能地认为，不管他是谁，他就是一个混蛋罢了。有时候就是这样，但其影响可以被减轻。我不知道，这取决于他们周围的人。如果他们周围都是软弱的人，那么他们就会一直以自己的方式行事，没有人能对此说什么，但是只需要一个意志坚强的人，就可以把这种对周围的人的虐待的情况缩减。我的建议是，试着成为那个强硬的人。
, studied Abnormal Psychology
I have heard of very few narcs going to therapy simply bc they don't believe there is anything wrong with them. They do not take responsibility for their actions, they always blame somebody else! I've been studying narcissism in depth for four years daily so apart from being well educated in this spectrum I was also the scapegoat of a covert Narc mother.
They are not garbage, they are far worse than that. In layman's terms they are the devil's spawn and so manipulative and psychotic liars that they can very easily fool anyone, including therapist's and educated psychologists.
In my educated opinion it is a personality disorder that they were either born with or developed in early life. It is so ingrained in their psyche that they cannot change.
我听说很少有自恋者去接受治疗，因为他们不相信自己有什么问题。他们不为自己的行为负责，他们总是指责别人！我每天都在深入研究自恋症，已经有四年的时间了，所以除了在这个领域受过良好的教育外，我也是一个隐蔽的自恋症母亲的受害者。
他们不是垃圾，他们远比这更糟糕。说白一点，他们是魔鬼的产物，是如此具有操纵性和精神病性的骗子，他们可以非常容易地欺骗任何人，包括治疗师和受过教育的心理学家。
在我看来，这是一种要么生来就有，要么是在早期生活中形成的人格障碍。这在他们的心理上是根深蒂固的，他们无法改变。
, Too Many to List or Speak Of at Experiences in Life (1978-present)
It’s funny the irony that narcissists do. You’re asking comment blatantly yet vaguely in regards to hoping to somehow manufacture people to hold more grace towards the disorder. We don’t treat them like garbage that’s the perception and if they are treated like garbage it’s after an extended period of time of the receiving of their treatment prior to finally becoming fed up and projecting it back because it’s the only way that you feel this person might understand what they’re doing but they don’t. Therefore, if we treat them shitty it’s because it’s a disorder. It cannot be cured, or even helped for that matter, without admittance and therapy of the ongoing variety. Only the self aware will endeavor and that’s a fraction in my opinion.
自恋者讽刺性的行为很有趣。你明目张胆地询问大众的评论，却又含糊不清地希望以某种方式制造人们对这种障碍持有更多的宽容心。我们不把他们当作垃圾，这是我们的看法，如果他们被当作垃圾，那也是在接受他们很长一段时间的对待后，才最终变得厌烦并把它投射回去，因为这是唯一的方法，你觉得这个人（自恋者）可能明白他们在做什么，但他们其实并没有。因此，如果我们糟糕地对待他们，那也是因为这是一种障碍。如果不承认并进行持续的治疗，它是无法被治愈的，甚至无法帮助他们。在我看来，只有自我意识到的人才会进行这种努力，而这只是这群人里的一小部分。
, lives in Alabama
because we are trying to warn people to protect themselves, as the average person CANNOT help a narc. if you are a trained therapist you might, but then you’d already know this. the average person can only be abused more and more, not help. i don’t think we treat them like “garbage” but instead tend to get our own lives entwined with theirs before we know it, and we are the ones who will be treated like garbage eventually if we DO try to stay with and/or help them. just because someone has a disorder doesn’t mean we should let it affect us, if there’s nothing we can do for them. just like covid, leprosy, tuberculosis, or the mumps, protection is the goal unless you are a professional.
因为我们试图警告人们保护自己，因为普通人无法帮助自恋者。如果你是一个训练有素的治疗师，你可能可以，但那是你已经非常了解这个了。普通人只会被虐待得越来越多，而不是提供帮助。我不认为我们把他们当作"垃圾"对待，而是如果在我们意识到之前就把我们自己的生活与他们的生活纠缠在一起，如果我们真的试图与他们呆在一起和/或帮助他们，我们最终会被当作垃圾对待。仅仅因为某人患有疾病并不意味着我们应该让它影响到我们，如果我们不能为他们做些什么的话。就像新冠肺炎、麻风病、结核病或腮腺炎一样，保护自己才你的目标，除非你是专业人士。
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