在欧洲，妈妈裸着上身在孩子面前晒日光浴正常吗？
In Europe, is it normal for a mom to sunbathe without a top in front of her children?
译文简介
许多年前，我和我刚学会走路的儿子陪同我的妻子参加了在阿姆斯特丹举行的艾滋病会议。
正文翻译
In Europe, is it normal for a mom to sunbathe without a top in front of her children?
在欧洲，妈妈裸着上身在孩子面前晒日光浴正常吗？
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, lives in İtaly (1971-present)
Obviously. Should I remind you that those children used to have those breasts in their mouth for months?
当然了。我应该提醒你孩子们会把乳房含在嘴里几个月吗？
Unfortunately, America was bottle fed.
It explains so much.
不幸的是，美国用的是奶瓶
这解释了很多问题。
it is normal for grannies too…
就算是奶奶这也很正常......
Guns, overpriced healthcare good, breasts bad.
枪支没问题、价格过高的医疗保健服务没问题；乳房，不行。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Many years ago my toddler son and I accompanied my wife to a hig HIV conference in Amsterdam. While my wife was at the conference my son and I spent many a happy hour in the large public pool in a nearby park as it was the heightof summer. The etiquette was one didn't stare at the topless young mums and the young mums covered their boobs when they went to the ice cream van to get an ice cream. When my wife turned up she smiled as I'd found the local cooling off spot and as the saying goes “ when in Rome……”
许多年前，我和我刚学会走路的儿子陪同我的妻子参加了在阿姆斯特丹举行的艾滋病会议。当我妻子参加会议时，我和儿子在附近公园的大型公共游泳池度过了许多快乐的时光，因为当时正值夏季。当时的礼仪是，不要盯着赤裸着上身的年轻妈妈看，而当年轻妈妈去冰激凌车买冰激凌时，会遮住她们的胸部。当我的妻子出现时，她笑了，因为我找到了当地的清凉之地，而俗话又说："入乡要随俗......"
In the US, a lot of people have the weird idea that breastfeeding is unnatural (really!) and that babies should be fed on commercially produced powder mixed with water, just as they have been for the whole of humanity’s history.
Apparently, lots of the men in the US believe that breasts are provided for their sexual gratification and become jealous of their offspring being allowed to suckle from them.
Bizarre doesn’t begin to describe these attitudes.
在美国，很多人有一种奇怪的想法，认为母乳喂养是不自然的（真的是这么想的！），婴儿应该用商业生产的粉末与水混合喂养，就像整个人类历史上都是这么干的一样。
显然，美国的很多男人认为乳房是为了满足他们的性欲而提供的，并嫉妒他们的后代被允许吸食乳房。
怪异一词已经不足以用来描述这些态度了。
I hear this, but never with any proof. I live and grew up in the US. I think this is one of those things that we Americans like to say that’s basically an urban legend. People breastfeed in the US.
But, the US is prudish as fuck and some regressives clutch their pearls when they see tits in the open.
我听说过这种说法，但从未有任何证据。我生活和成长在美国。我想这是我们美国人喜欢说的基本上是一个都市传奇的事情之一。在美国，人们是用母乳喂养的。
但是，美国的审慎程度很高，一些退步的人一看到公开露出的乳房就绷不住了。
Who in the world says this??
After the invention of formula, yes, women were told that formula was better than breastmilk. But that went away a while ago.
I guess as an American I’ve never heard anyone say that formula is best… actually quite the opposite. I’ve heard plenty of women on high horses preach about how terrible formula is and hpw babies should only ever get breastmilk.
世界上有谁是这么说的？？
在配方奶粉发明后，是的，妇女被告知配方奶粉比母乳更好。但这在不久前已经消失了。
我想作为一个美国人，我从来没有听过有人说配方奶是最好的......实际上恰恰相反。我听过很多站在制高点的妇女宣扬配方奶粉是多么可怕，婴儿应该只吃母乳。
Who in the world says this?
Sorry, I haven’t been taking down names.
“世界上有谁是这么说的？？”
不好意思，我没记下这么说的人的名字
It was a rhetorical question. I’m just saying I’ve never heard it being said. Or even insinuated. Ever. And I live in America. Just because you said “lots of people”. So I would have thought I’d have heard it at least once, with hearing so many other people talk about formula like it’s terrible for your baby.
I’m sure some people do feel this way. I just feel like your comment made it sound like it’s a big thing over here, to vouch for formula instead of breastmilk. It’s not.
这是个反问句。我只是说我从来没有听到有人这么说过。甚至是暗示。从来没有。而且我住在美国。因为你说有"很多人"这么说。所以我想我至少听过一次，但是我听到很多其他人谈论的都是配方奶粉好像对你的宝宝很可怕。
我相信有些人确实有这种感觉。我只是觉得你的评论让人觉得在美国人人都支持配方奶而不是母乳。其实不然。
Breasts are like toy train sets. They’re meant for the children but daddies like to play with them.
乳房就像玩具火车套装。它们是给孩子们准备的，但爸爸们只喜欢自己玩。
The British do it mostly on Spanish beaches it saves them having to leave their sun loungers when their children are hungry and if they do leave their sun loungers, the Germans claim them by putting their beach towels on them.
英国人主要在西班牙海滩上这样做，这样他们就不必在孩子们饿的时候离开他们的太阳椅了，如果他们真的离开他们的太阳椅（去喂孩子），德国人就会把他们的沙滩巾放在上面，把它们占领的。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Ew, disgusting. I don’t want to see my mothers tits. BuT yOu SuCkEd ThEm. Yeah, before I was old enough to remember traumatic shit
噫，真恶心。我不想看到我妈妈的乳房。“但是你曾经吮吸过它们呢”，是，在我还没大到足以记得极不愉快的东西之前
Your mother’s tits are traumatic? Jesus, it must be very weird to live in a head like that.
你母亲的乳房对你来说是极不愉快的东西？天啊，以这样的头脑生活的感觉一定很奇怪。
Not really. Some people still believe the human body is an intimate thing that should be shared with people you love, not everyone. I feel bad for people who don’t revere the body in such a way.
并非如此。有些人仍然认为人体是一种亲密的东西，应该和你爱的人分享，而不是每个人。我为那些不这样敬畏身体的人感到难过。
So people should wear ninja outfits? Since obviously you can’t expose a single inch of the body.
Or is it that when you say the human body shouldn’t be shared, you only meant some sext parts?
所以人们应该穿上忍者的服装？因为显然你不能暴露身体的一寸。
还是说，当你说人体不应该被分享时，你只是指一些特定的部分？
No you just want to see them as a sexual thing that women only have for your gratification.
不，你只是想把它们看作是女人只为满足你而拥有的“性”的东西。
Human anatomy is “traumatic?”
人体结构是“令人极不愉快”的吗？
Go home to momma and tell her you want to suck her tits
回到你妈妈身边，告诉她你想吮吸她的乳房
There's an easy solution: Don't look.
有一个简单的解决办法：别看就是了。
Ok Sarah, I’ll just walk around with my dick out and tell people not to look. Will you be my attorney?
好的萨拉，我会露着我的丁丁走来走去，并且告诉人们不喜欢别看就是了。你会做我的律师吗？
Yeah, good luck with that. Knowing time and place is key.
好的，祝你好运。请搞清楚主题标明的时间和地点，这是关键。
Women don’t walk around with their vaginas visible, men do with their breasts. Isn’t that true?
女人不会露着她们的下体走来走去，男人却总是露着他们的上身走来走去。不是吗？
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Female breasts can achieve orgasm when sucked on and is a frequent sexual act, where as men cannot, is that true?
女性乳房在吮吸时可以达到高潮，是一种普遍的性行为，而男性不能，不是吗？
No its not true. You can probably count on one hand the amount of women that can orgadm that way. I know you're a bit dim and may not be aware of this thing us women have called a clitoris, sucking on that is what makes us orgasm my dear and I can assure you that we don't walk around with it hanging out.
不，这不是真的。你可能用一只手就能数出有多少女人能通过这种方式达到高潮。我知道你有点傻，可能不知道我们女人有一个叫阴蒂的东西，吸吮它才能让我们达到高潮，亲爱的，我可以向你保证，我们不会把它露在外面走来走去。
Some people orgasm from feet, Jack. What one can orgasm from is not a good yardstick.
Also I’m pretty sure some men out there can orgasm from their nipples.
有些人还能从脚上达到高潮呢，杰克。一个人的高潮不是一个好的标准。
我也很确定有些男人可以从他们的乳头中达到高潮。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
I mean the breasts are capable of orgasm. Some people can orgasm from being electronic shock. That doesn’t mean the electronic shock is capable of orgasm.
我的意思是乳房能够达到高潮。有些人可以通过电子休克来达到高潮。这并不意味着电子休克能够达到高潮。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
So how do you know that breasts are capable of orgasm, if you refuse to use the same methodology with other equivalent situations?
那么，如果你拒绝在其他同等情况下使用同样的理论，你怎么知道乳房能够达到高潮？
Because it’s scientific fact. And I’ve felt it in my mouth. I do apply the same methodology to other things. Men cover their sexual organs, as do women.
因为这是科学事实。而且我从我的嘴里感觉到过。我确实把同样的理论运用到其他事情上。男人应该遮盖他们的性器官，女人也是如此。
Because it’s scientific fact
Citations, then?
And I’ve felt it in my mouth.
People can say the same about feet.
Men cover their sexual organs, as do women.
Yes, breasts are not sexual organs.
“因为这是科学事实”
那么，资料来源呢？
“从我的嘴里感觉到过”
人们也可以对脚说同样的话。
“男人应该遮盖他们的性器官，女人也是如此。”
是的，乳房不是性器官。
Yes, breasts are not sexual organs.
Although they are erogenous zones.
“是的，乳房不是性器官。”
它们是唤起性欲的区域
, Native Finn
I don’t know about the whole Europe.
Here in Finland it’s a common habit to go to a sauna with your family, and yes, it’s done nude, if that needs to be said.
So, I don’t see why it wasn’t normal for a mom to sunbathe without a top in front of her children if she was in a sauna with them just an hour ago.
我不知道整个欧洲的情况。
在芬兰，和家人一起去洗桑拿是一种常见的习惯，是的，如果需要说清楚的话，是完全裸体。
所以，我不明白为什么一个妈妈在她的孩子面前不穿上衣晒太阳是不正常的，如果她一小时前还和孩子们在桑拿房里。
To add my two pennies worth, in Central Europe we found it common for families to go to the public sauna which were mixed facilities. Parents and children of all ages would shower and sauna naked. It was just the thing to do, no one batted an eyelid.
You could be showering and in walks a guy, a girl or family and shower next you. Same in the Steam Room, I could walk in and sit there quite comfortably with two or three fellas sat their and then joined by a couple of teens.
All quite normal (once you’re used to it, it did take hubby a while to feel comfortable).
我想说的是，在中欧，我们认为一家人去公共桑拿浴室是很常见的，那里是混合设施。所有年龄段的父母和孩子都会裸体洗澡和桑拿。这是很正常的事情，没有人会多看一眼。
你可能正在洗澡，一个男人、一个女孩或一个家庭走进来，在你旁边洗澡。蒸气室也是如此，我可以走进去，很舒服地坐在那里，有两三个人坐在那里，然后有几个青少年加入。
这一切都很正常（一旦你习惯了这样的生活，我老公确实花了一些时间才适应了下来）。
I’ve heard that in Central Europe that is a common habit. Here in Finland, public saunas are single sex by default, even though there may be some exceptions.
我听说在中欧，这是个常见的习惯。在芬兰，公共桑拿浴室默认为单一性别，尽管可能有一些例外。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Where we used go as regulars had Finnish saunas of differing intensity, same with Steam Rooms including a caldarium. Plus a Roman bath, which was really a very warm swimming pool. A couple of jacuzzis, plunge pool and ice buckets. All completely coed.
In Finland, if single sex saunas, can you not go with your partner?
我们以前经常去的地方有不同强度的芬兰桑拿浴，同样还有蒸汽房，包括一个钙化池。还有一个罗马浴池，实际上就是一个非常温暖的游泳池。还有几个按摩浴缸、跳水池和冰桶。所有这些都是男女共用的。
在芬兰，如果是单性别桑拿，你就不能和你的伴侣一起去了吗？
In normal Finnish public saunas, no, you can’t. Saunas and washing rooms are separate. Swimming pool area is common, but there you must wear a swimming suite.
在正常的芬兰公共桑拿浴室，不，你不能。桑拿房和冲凉房是分开的。游泳池区男女混合是常见的，但在那里你必须穿上游泳套装。
I have experienced this quite a bit, and like most things, you get used to it and it stops being weird. But you have to be willing to go outside your comfort for a little while.
I once did a therapy group that was completely naked with a group of people for two weeks. It was funny for the first day, but after that it stopped being anything out of the ordinary. And I’m not exactly the nudist type or anything.
It’s definitely easier when you are not sexually attracted to any of the people in your vicinity, but even then you get over it.
我有过不少这样的经历，和大多数事情一样，你习惯了，就不再觉得奇怪了。但你必须愿意在你的舒适范围之外走一段时间。
我曾经参加过一个治疗小组，和一群人完全裸体，为期两周。第一天很有趣，但之后就不再有什么不寻常了。而且我也不完全是裸体主义者或任何之类的。
当你对你周围的任何一个人都没有性吸引力时，这肯定更容易，但即使有你也可以克服它。
“it’s done nude, if that needs to be said.”
Yes, that needs to be said! In New Zealand now, I’m more and more seeing signs actually prohibiting nudity in public saunas and requiring wearing of at least shorts. The culture has changed in just the past few years - it was absolutely normal to be nude in the past. I think it may have to do with people whose religions forbid public nudity (mostly Muslims) complaining, or maybe just a general movement toward “modesty” (most men in locker rooms now are very careful to never be nude, and change their clothes underneath a towel).
“如果需要说清楚的话，是完全裸体。”
是的，需要这么说清楚! 现在在新西兰，我越来越多地看到在公共桑拿浴室实际禁止裸体的标志，并要求至少穿短裤。在过去的几年里，文化已经发生了变化--在过去，裸体是绝对正常的。我认为这可能与那些宗教禁止公开裸体的人（主要是穆斯林）的抱怨有关，也可能只是一个普遍的"质朴"运动（现在更衣室里的大多数男人都非常小心，从不裸体，并在毛巾下换衣服）。
In Finland that’s the common practise in public mixed saunas too. But not otherwise.
在芬兰，这也是在公共混合桑拿的常见做法。但其它情况下就不这样。
Yes, I can see it in mixed saunas. Almost none of the saunas here are mixed; they are usually in single-sex locker rooms at gyms.
是的，我可以在混合桑拿浴室中看到这点。但这里的桑拿房几乎没有一个是混合的；而且这种标志通常是在健身房的单性别更衣室里。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
So, in New Zealand even single sex nudity in a sauna is a problem? I see that as a problem…
所以，在新西兰，即使是在单一性别的桑拿房里裸体也是一个问题？我认为这反而是个问题...
Yes, it is becoming that way more and more. The gyms are actually posting signs saying nudity is not allowed. I even saw it on the door leading into the shower area. How can you shower without being nude? It’s ridiculous. And they want you to wear clothes in the spa/jacuzzi too.
实际上张贴着不允许裸体的标志。我甚至在通往淋浴区的门上看到了它。你怎么能不裸体地洗澡呢？这太荒谬了。他们还想让你在按摩浴缸里穿衣服。
Hm. I don’t understand that really. But I don’t really go to public saunas in Finland: I have two of my own and basically everyone I know has one too. It must be about 7 years from the last time I visited a public sauna. I’m not really familiar with that form of sauna.
嗯。我真的不明白这一点。但是我在芬兰不怎么去公共桑拿浴室。我自己有两个，基本上我认识的人也都有一个。距离我上次去公共桑拿房应该有7年了。我对那种形式的桑拿浴并不熟悉。
You can shower without being nude by wearing bottoms.
It seems to be a general trend to move back to a bit more prudishness in public spaces. I see the same in The Netherlands - I don’t think I’ve seen a public sauna or spa where nudity was allowed in the past ten years. Most people on nudity-allowed beaches also wear swim suits.
I don’t think that has anything to do with religion (or immigrants), though I’m not sure where it is coming from. I was raised by parents comfortable enough with nudity, and as far as I know so were all my age-relative friends. Yet I don’t think any of us would ever consider going nude in a sauna, swimming pool or beach.
I’m personally very glad more and more people keep their swimming suits on. I don’t want to see other people’s junk when I’m trying to relax.
But it’s still an interesting trend.
你可以通过穿底裤洗澡而不必裸体。
在公共场所向更谨慎的方向发展似乎是一种普遍趋势。我在荷兰也看到了同样的情况--我想在过去的十年里，我没有看到过允许裸体的公共桑拿或温泉。在允许裸体的海滩上，大多数人也穿着泳装。
我不认为这与宗教（或移民）有什么关系，尽管我不确定它来自哪里。我是由对裸体有足够的舒适感的父母抚养长大的，据我所知，我所有同龄的朋友也都是如此。但我不认为我们中的任何人会考虑在桑拿房、游泳池或海滩上裸体。
我个人非常高兴越来越多的人保持他们的泳衣。我不想在我试图放松的时候看到其他人的垃圾。
但这仍然是一个有趣的趋势。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
I’m very surprised to hear that about nude beaches. Here in New Zealand, people still seem perfectly comfortable going fully nude on them, even though they are not officially legal here. But of course those are people who specifically seek out the opportunity for nudity, rather than a mixed beach that allows both.
I find the trend toward guys changing their clothes under a towel in locker rooms, which is the most common thing here now, to be ridiculous and a bit disturbing. I don’t understand why there is so much embarrassment about the human body these days. I wonder if it has to do with how much porn young people are exposed to (with penises that are so much larger than average), and also the fact that there is much more awareness that there might be non-straight people around.
听到关于你们那里的裸体海滩的说法，我感到非常惊讶。在新西兰，人们似乎仍然完全可以在沙滩上全裸，尽管他们在这里并不正式合法。但当然，这些人是专门寻找可以裸体的地方，而不是允许两者的混合海滩。
我发现在更衣室里，男人在毛巾下换衣服的趋势，也就是现在这里最常见的事情，是很可笑的，而且有点令人不安。我不明白为什么现在有这么多关于对人类身体的尴尬。我不知道这是否与年轻人接触到多少色情制品有关（阴茎比一般人大得多），还有就是人们更加意识到周围可能有非异性恋者。
It’s the beige generation aka ‘Millennials’. Too many lack nuance and critical thinking, among other things.
There’s also likely an assumption of being filmed in the mix too. And Millennials are very likely to have the opinion that if someone films you nude in the locker room and posts it somewhere, it’s your own fault for not covering up — not the lowlife who filmed you.
I hate to be negative, but trying to have a reasonable discussion with many of this lot is like trying to have a discussion with an under 15 adolescent - who are generally not expected to be mature enough to have this sort of conversation that involves perspective of self and others. But dealing with adults like this is maddening. It’s like a disease with them.
这是米色的一代，又称 "千禧一代"。太多的人缺乏细微差别和批判性思维，以及其他东西。
这其中也可能有一个怕被偷拍的设想。千禧一代很可能认为，如果有人在更衣室拍摄你的裸体，并将其发布在某个地方，那是你自己的错，因为你没有遮掩--而不是拍摄你的那个卑鄙小人。
我不想说得太消极，但试图与这些人中的许多人进行合理的讨论，就像试图与15岁以下的青少年进行讨论--他们一般不会成熟到可以进行这种涉及自我和他人观点的对话。但是和这样的成年人打交道是令人抓狂的。对他们来说，这（裸体）就像一种疾病。
I can only speculate, and even more I only have information about me and people I directly know. So the below is purely anecdotal.
Like I said, I know that me (and my brothers) and most of my male friends have been raised in an environment that was not nudity-opposed. We’re the generation with parents grown up in the 60s and 70s so our parents are generally comfortable with nudity!
And yet we are indeed the people that would change their clothes under a towel - or rather, I’d try to get a small changing room to myself. I would also indeed queue for a toilet stall rather than use a urinal.
From my anecdotal experience, I wouldn’t think it has anything to do with porn or gay acceptance. I don’t think it’s sexual in nature at all.
I also do not think it has anything to do with lack of confidence - I would argue it’s the opposite. We are very confident in what we want, and we are resilient to peer pressure.
I say that because I’ve disliked public nudity as long as I can remember. I didn’t want to shower in public showers after sports class when I was six years old - and a lot of other children were opposed to that as well.
I can’t imagine at six years old that has anything to do with porn or sexuality.
But then adults and school and parents told us it’s very normal, and to not make a fuzz, and to not be prudes… and that’s where I think confidence comes in.
Previous generations of children might have felt pressured to get used to the public nudity. They might have said “using a urinal is less comfortable than waiting for a stall, but waiting for a stall is awkward and makes me feel less-manly and I want to be like dad, etc…”
But we didn’t. We were confident enough in what we wanted and didn’t want.
Even as a kid I was confident enough to say “I’m not using that gross urinal standing shoulder-to-shoulder with other people. I’ll wait here until a stall becomes available.”
Because it’s more comfortable, and peer pressure be damned.
To me, looking at other people’s junk is not comfortable - it makes me feel icky. I think most young children share that sentiment.
And me and my peers have grown up in an environment where we are free to choose, where we are taught to stand up for ourselves and where we were consistently reminded that we don’t need to do things that we’re not comfortable with.
So we chose we would rather have stalls than urinals, rather have individual shower stalls than big public showers, and that we would rather keep our pants on in the sauna.
Mind you that I don’t begrudge anyone who wants to be nude. And if you want to use a urinal, fine by me. But I’m keeping my pants on.
我只能做一些猜测，甚至我只有关于我和我直接认识的人的信息。所以下面的内容纯粹是一种个人想法。
就像我说的，我知道我（和我的兄弟）和我的大多数男性朋友都是在一个不反对裸体的环境中长大的。我们的父母是在60年代和70年代长大的一代，所以我们的父母一般都能接受裸体！但由他们养育的我们，确实是那些对裸体不感兴趣的人。
而且，我们确实是那些会在毛巾下换衣服的人--或者说，我会努力争取一个属于自己的小更衣室。我也确实会排队上厕所，而不是去使用小便池。
从我的经验来看，我不认为这与色情或同性恋接受度有什么关系。我认为这根本不是性方面的问题。
我也不认为这与缺乏自信有关--我认为这恰恰相反。我们对自己想要的东西非常自信，而且我们对同龄人的压力是有弹性的。
我这么说是因为从我有记忆以来，我就不喜欢公共场合的裸体。我六岁的时候不想在体育课后在公共淋浴间洗澡--其他很多孩子也不喜欢这样做。
我无法想象在六岁的时候，这与色情或性行为有什么关系。
但后来大人、学校和父母告诉我们，这很正常，不需要强迫自己，不需要假正经......这就是我认为我这么做的信心的来源。
前几代的孩子可能会有要随大流习惯于公开的裸体的压力。他们可能会说："使用小便池没有等待隔间那么舒服，但是等待隔间很尴尬，让我觉得自己不那么有男子气概，我想和爸爸一样，之类的......"
但是我们这一代没有。我们对自己想要什么和不想要什么有足够的信心。
甚至在我还是个孩子的时候，我就有足够的自信说："我不想使用那个恶心的小便池，和其他人肩并肩地站着。我会在这里等待，直到有一个隔间可以使用。"
因为这样更舒服，而同龄人的压力也根本不用管。
对我来说，看别人的垃圾并不舒服--它让我感到恶心。我想大多数年轻的孩子都有这种感觉。
而我和我的同龄人是在一个可以自由选择的环境中长大的，我们被教导要为自己代言，而且我们一直被提醒，我们不需要做我们不舒服的事情。
因此，我们选择了我们宁愿去等一个隔间可以使用而不是小便池，宁愿有独立的淋浴间而不是大的公共淋浴间，而且我们宁愿在桑拿房里穿着裤子。
请注意，我并不苛求任何想要裸体的人。如果你想使用小便池，我也不介意。我只是要保持我的裤子。