捷克人和斯洛伐克人被称为东欧时会生气，但当他们被称为西欧时不会生气。这是因为他们瞧不起真正的东欧人，崇拜西欧人吗？
Czechs and Slovaks get offended when they''re called Eastern European but not when they''re called Western European. Is that because they look down on real Eastern Europeans and worship Western Europeans?
译文简介
残酷而真实地说，许多西欧人，特别是那些老到记得铁幕落下的人，仍然使用同样的心理来划分地理。
正文翻译
Czechs and Slovaks get offended when they're called Eastern European but not when they're called Western European. Is that because they look down on real Eastern Europeans and worship Western Europeans?
捷克人和斯洛伐克人被称为东欧时会生气，但当他们被称为西欧时不会生气。这是因为他们瞧不起真正的东欧人，崇拜西欧人吗？
捷克人和斯洛伐克人被称为东欧时会生气，但当他们被称为西欧时不会生气。这是因为他们瞧不起真正的东欧人，崇拜西欧人吗？
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, studied at Bachelor of Art in Psychology
What Poles think Eastern European means:
What Americans think Eastern European means:
Also it really translates into: (because Greece was once affluent)
That’s why they get offended ;-p. Because this is the association the Americans and some other non-European have. And they know it.
波兰人认为东欧的意思是：
美国人认为东欧人的意思是：
它也可以翻译成：（因为希腊曾经很富裕）
这就是他们生气的原因。因为这是美国人和其他一些非欧洲人之间对此产生的联想。他们也知道这一点。
To be brutally honest, many western Europeans, especially the ones who are old enough to remember the iron curtain coming down still use that same mental division.
For me, as a Dutch person born in the late sixties, the difference between east and west is still ‘the former Warschau pact countries’ and the ‘original Nato countries’.
I know the distinction is becoming less and less relevant, and justly so, but I’ll probably always will mentally have the no longer existing iron curtian in my head as the border between east and western Europe, but for people born after 1989 this will probably no longer be the case.
残酷而真实地说，许多西欧人，特别是那些老到记得铁幕落下的人，仍然使用同样的心理来划分地理。
对我来说，作为一个出生在六十年代末的荷兰人，东西方之间的区别仍然是 "前华沙条约国 "和"原北约国"。
我知道这种区别正变得越来越不重要，而且是正确的，但我可能会一直在头脑中把不再存在的铁铁幕作为东欧和西欧的边界，但对于1989年以后出生的人来说，这可能不再是事实了。
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Yes, exactly. I think the distinction East/West Europe will die out only when both these two things happen: 1) Most people who grew up during the cold-war period become a small minority (I’d include all people born before 1990; so this will happen around 2070). 2) When most countries in the former “Easter European block” will have a comparable level of wealth as Western ones. This is difficult to forecast but I think that, with any luck, it might happen already around 2050.
是的，没错。我认为只有当这两件事发生时，东/西欧的区别才会消亡。1）大多数在冷战时期长大的人成为少数人（我会包括所有1990年以前出生的人；所以这将在2070年左右发生）。2）当前"东欧区块"的大多数国家将拥有与西方国家相当的财富水平。这很难预测，但我认为，如果运气好的话，它可能会在2050年左右发生。
Well, you’re right, but in fact, Central European countries are already richer than some “western” countries. Poland is richer than Greece and Portugal, and Czech Republic and Slovenia will soon surpass Spain and Italy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
你说得对，但事实上，中欧国家已经比一些“西方”国家更富有了。波兰比希腊和葡萄牙更富有，捷克共和国和斯洛文尼亚将很快超过西班牙和意大利。https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
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Czech Republic actually did pass Italy and Spain in GDP/capita just as you were writing this, some time last year. It's projected to stay that way too.
捷克共和国实际上在人均GDP上超过了意大利和西班牙，就像你去年写这篇文章的那样。预计会保持这个方向前进。
Yes my husband is German and is 56. He did the compulsory military service in the early 1980s. For him, even the parts of Germany that were communist are still somehow “other”, and he certainly defines Eastern Europe the same way the Americans (and Australians and British) do.
是的，我丈夫是德国人，今年56岁。他在1980年代初服过义务兵役。对他来说，即使是德国的共产主义地区也仍然是某种程度上的"其他地区"，而且他对东欧的定义肯定与美国人（以及澳大利亚人和英国人）的方式相同。
Yeah, I travelled around Germany for a few weeks in 2019. There is still a very noticeable difference in infrastructure between Frankfurt and Leipzig. Even the areas of Berlin that were were West Berlin are noticeably nicer and, from space, you can see the difference from the types of lightbulbs used in street lights:
是的，我在2019年在德国各地旅行了几周。法兰克福和莱比锡在基础设施方面仍有非常明显的差异。即使是柏林，曾经是西柏林的地区，也明显要好一些，从太空中，你可以从路灯使用的灯泡类型中看到区别。
Jan Kordač
When I was child, the N-word, or Gypsy was used commonly. Now, if you said something like this in public, you would be considered racist. Use the same standard in this regards. We don’t want to be called Eastern European, so just don’t do it. Easy.
当我还是个孩子的时候，尼格或吉普赛这些词仍被普遍使用。现在，如果你在公共场合说这样的话，你会被认为是种族主义者。在这方面请使用同样的标准。我们不想被称为东欧人，所以就不要这样做。很简单。
So you’re saying Eastern European is some kind of racial slur now? I sure missed the memo on that one.
所以你的意思是“东欧”这个词现在在某种程度上是一种 种族歧视了？我很确定没这回事。
No, just a slur (for that part that are not Eastern, of course).
不，这是一种诽谤（当然，这是对于那些不属于是东欧的地方）。
For people who are old enough to remember the Cold War, Eastern Europe is shorthand for Soviet Bloc.
Given that the definition is now obsolete, I'm in favour of the more geographically accurate division, maybe with a few minor tweaks.
对于那些年长到记得冷战的人来说，东欧是苏联集团的简称。
鉴于这个定义现在已经过时了，我赞成在地理上更准确的划分，也许还需要做一些小的调整。
Name is just a way to communicate. There is little reason to change a name because someone disagrees with its literal translation.
If they stop using western/eastern europe, they will start calling the western block NATO europe, capitalist europe or whatever bizzare name they can think of.
名字只是一种交流方式。没有什么理由因为有人不同意其字面翻译而改变名称。
如果他们停止使用西欧/东欧，他们就会开始称西边为北约欧洲、资本主义欧洲或他们能想到的任何古怪的名字。
Well, when a semantic shift takes place, you can keep the old term at the cost of ambiguity. For example, is half of Germany still in Eastern Europe or not?
那么，当语义发生转变时，你可以以模糊不清为代价保留旧的术语。例如，一半的德国到底还在不在东欧？
If east germany is the survivor half. It's likely be called eastern today.
A name is just a name. The United states of America does not imply that they own the entire continent of America. It is simply a name they like to call their own country and it is meaningless to argue that they shouldnt be able to use that name unless they own the continent.
It is not to say that you are wrong. You are right, geography-wise. However, the term does not refer to geography but the ways people define the region.
如果德国东部这一半幸存下来。它今天很可能被称为东德。
名字只是一个名字。美利坚合众国并不意味着他们拥有整个美洲大陆。这只是他们喜欢称呼自己国家的一个名字，争辩说他们不应该使用这个名字，除非他们拥有整个大陆，这是毫无意义的。
这并不是说你是错的。从地理上讲，你是对的。然而，这个词并不是指地理，而是指人们定义该地区的方式。
Like I said, ambiguity. You've got geography, politics, culture, all giving different meaning to the term “East”.
就像我说的，模糊性。地理、政治、文化，都给了"东方"这个词不同的含义。
Very much NOT, name is more important. Why in the US impossible to say officially that word to the black people “n..r”, because remembering them to the slavery, and for this reason hardly insulting and provocative!
Very same, if you calling Central European countries, as “Eastern” - because remembering them to the suffering and destruction of the time they was occupied forcefuly by Eastern Europe! These countries (Poland, Czechia, Hungary, Slovakia) relating to the western european history, they culture and religion is western - and this very much different as the eastern european culture and religion (Based on Moscow and Byzant). Otherwise geographicaly also very much not true!
So: only provocators and ignorants want to using wrong names! And NAMES AREN’T JUST NAMES!
非常不对，名字很重要。为什么在美国不可能对黑人正式说"n...r "这个词，因为这会让他们想起奴隶制，因此，这几乎是一种侮辱和挑衅。
同样的，如果你称中欧国家为"东方"--因为你是在让他们记起他们在被东欧强行占领时的痛苦和破坏！这些国家（波兰、捷克、匈牙利、斯洛伐克）与西欧历史有关，他们的文化和宗教是西方的--这与东欧的文化和宗教（基于莫斯科和拜占庭）有很大的不同。另外这在地理上也是非常不正确的!
所以：只有挑衅者和无知者才会使用错误的名字！而名字代表的也不仅仅只是一个名字!
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We don't really care how a word comes into existence, we call that group of people eastern europe because the listeners would understand exactly what we're talking about. That word serves its purpose.
You can suggest another name to replace it (the same way black americans ask people to call them black/African American), but that distinction never goes away.
我们其实并不关心一个词是如何产生的，我们称那群人为东欧人，因为听众会完全明白我们在说什么。这个词达到了它的目的。
你可以建议用另一个名字来代替它（就像美国黑人要求人们叫他们黑人/非裔美国人一样），但这种指向性永远不会消失。
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Of course we can call you and your type of asians also same insultative way. And of course if you want to insulting others also you can do it - but in long term this will never lead noowhere, because skiping the basic element of the communication, which is the “respect” - so with time, if the “cold war generation” died out, nobody will use wrong names, because not interested with the conflict of a whole region!
Central Europe now predimantely used term across Europe and the world, contrary to the 30 years ago used wrong terms. Your evil imagination, that something “never goes away” ridiculous, because the history showing this exactly opposite!
Countries positions 1000 years long not changing through 40 years, the 40 year is just a flashlight short time in the historical perspective.
You can be proud for yourself, to be a part of a slowly instinct minority!
当然，我们也可以用同样的侮辱性方式称呼你和你这种类型的亚洲人。当然，如果你想侮辱别人，你也可以这样做--但从长远来看，这永远不会有任何结果，因为跳过了沟通的基本要素，即"尊重"--所以随着时间的推移，如果"冷战一代"消亡，没有人会再使用错误的名字，因为他们对整个地区的冲突不感兴趣！
中欧现在是整个欧洲和世界上准确使用的术语，与30年前使用的错误术语相反。你那邪恶的想象力，认为有些东西"永远不会消失"，这是很荒谬的，因为历史表明这完全是相反的
国家的地位1000年来并没有通过40年而改变，40年在历史上只是一个闪光灯下的短暂时间。
你可以为你自己感到骄傲，因为你是一个有着迟缓的反应的少数人里的一部分!
There used to be a time that all Asians are called Chinese. We keep correcting them and now we are called “Asian". If a distinction is needed, the word that describe it might change, but the distinction never goes away.
Let's be real, “Eastern Europe" is the synonym of the “poorer half of Europe". The distinct exists because of your economy, not culture or geography.
曾经有一段时间，所有亚洲人都被称为中国人。我们不断纠正他们，现在我们被称为"亚洲人"。如果这个指向性依然有存在的需要，那描述它的词可能会改变，但内在的指向性从未消失。
说实话，"东欧"是"欧洲较贫穷的一半"的同义词。这种指向性的存在是因为你的经济，而不是文化或地理。
The funniest that this isn’t true also - I must repeat again: this fake name only using by those, who left themselves in the past! The “poorer” distinction also very much false: meanwhile all V4 countries overthrowed economocaly Portugal and Greece, and Czechia overthrowed Italy too! All the four countries in the best way, that within marginal time will be ahead of all 4 southern-european countries, Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain! Btw. do you think Portugal (or soon Italy) belonging to Eastern Europe? Then used this name for them too!
Once again: the false names does nothing with the actual facts, but showing way more to the mindset and the backwardness of the person, who using them. This simply sticky, if someone don’t know take differency otherway, just based on long overdued stereotypes! Sticky and pity….
最有趣的是，即使是这一点也不是真的--我必须再次重申：这个假名字只被那些把自己留在过去的人使用! "更穷"的指向性也是非常错误的：因为此时，所有V4国家都超越了葡萄牙和希腊的经济状况，捷克也超越了意大利！所有这四个国家都以最好的方式，在有限的时间内，领先于所有四个南欧国家，葡萄牙、意大利、希腊、西班牙! 你认为葡萄牙（或很快地，意大利）属于东欧吗？那就把这个名字也用在他们身上吧!
再次强调：虚假的名字对实际的事实没有任何作用，但更多地显示了那些使用这些名字的人的心态和落后的程度。这真的让人很不快。如果有些人明明不知道事实，只是根据长期以来的刻板印象来谈论一件事。真是让人不快又可怜...
The name Eastern Europe itself isn’t bad, it is how it is used or why it is used. If the term ‘Eastern Europe’ was purely used in reference to geography then it would be fine. However, it is not. You can currently be further east and counted as being in Western Europe. That is just plain wrong and means that we are not equating the term properly. The term itself doesn’t necessarily need to change, but how it is used does. It is fine to use the N word in some countries because the term was always used for what the term literally means. In North America that is not the case. In such a location you can almost always guarantee that a guy with Neo-Nazi tattoos isn’t using the N word to refer to his black suitcase. If you don’t need a term to describe the formal countries part of the Austrian Empire or you don’t need a term to differentiate Catholic from Orthodox Europe then no, you don’t need a term to differentiate former Soviet block states from other states either. People may think they do because they believe certain stereotypes are true, pervasive, and justify such a term, but they are wrong to begin with. Having terms to describe stereotypes is never good, weather that word is ‘Eastern Europe’ or superheferanfrass.
东欧这个名字本身并没有什么坏的含义，关键是它的使用方式或使用原因。如果"东欧"这个词纯粹是指地理，那么它就很好。然而，事实并非如此。目前，这个词被用在远离东方，甚至被算作是在西欧的地方。这完全是错误的，意味着我们没有正确地等同于这个术语。这个词本身不一定需要改变，但它的使用方式需要改变。在一些国家使用"N "开头的词是可以的，因为这个词一直被用于该词的字面意思。但在北美，情况并非如此。在这样的地方，你几乎总是可以保证一个有新纳粹纹身的人用那个N开头的词不是用来指他的黑色行李箱。如果你不需要一个术语来描述前奥地利帝国地区的国家，或者你不需要一个术语来区分天主教和东正教的欧洲，那么不，你也不需要一个术语来区分前苏联地区国家和其他国家。人们可能认为他们需要，因为他们认为某些刻板印象是真实的、普遍的，并证明了这样一个术语的合理性，但他们一开始就错了。用术语来描述刻板印象从来都不是好事，不管这个词是"东欧"还是"superheferanfrass"。
Oh yeah, obsolete, as if all those differences just magically disappeared. Germany still spends tons of money to upxe the eastern part. Anyway the biggest difference is always in mentality.
哦，是的，过时了，仿佛所有这些差异都神奇地消失了。德国仍然花了大量的钱来支援东部地区。总之，最大的差异总是在心态上。
Lol, East Germany is no longer a client state of Soviet Russia, so I'd dare say “obsolete” is an accurate descxtion!
哈哈，东德不再是苏联的附庸国，所以我敢说“过时”是一个准确的描述！
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Also it is very important to note that before the Eastern Bloc ever existed, the Austro-Hungarian Empire was always thought of as Central European Kingdom. These countries are nowadays mostly Austria, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, & also surrounding areas as Croatia, Serbia, etc. Today, thanks to that specific period of time in modern history, where the Iron Curtain existed, everybody keeps calling those countries Eastern European (except Austria, they speak German). Which is mindblowing how such a short political divison can change the perception of the people on geography and politics. From my perspective, my nation was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, so my nation was located in Central Europe. Then it was in the Eastern Bloc for a while and after the fall of the Iron Curtain - one would have guessed the same nation would go back to being Central European again (if theres no west-east division anymore), but nah. Frozen in the Eastern Bloc forever in some people’s minds. I personally think the people who still consider the former Iron Curtain as a decision making point in European geography and politics is obsessed with that particular time period, or I imagine their history or geography teachers were obsessed with that period of time. Otherwise, I cannot imagine it in any other way
另外，非常重要的一点是，在东欧集团存在之前，奥匈帝国一直被认为是中欧王国。这些国家如今主要是指奥地利、捷克、斯洛伐克、匈牙利，以及克罗地亚、塞尔维亚等周边地区。今天，由于现代历史上存在铁幕的那段特殊时期，每个人都一直称这些国家为东欧（除了奥地利，他们说德语）。令人震惊的是，如此短暂的政治分裂可以改变人们对地理和政治的看法。在我看来，我的国家是奥匈帝国的一部分，所以我的国家位于中欧。然后它在东欧集团呆了一段时间，在铁幕倒下后--人们会猜想同一个国家会再次回到中欧（如果不再有西东之分的话），但是没有。在一些人的心目中，某国永远被冻结在了东欧集团。我个人认为，那些仍然把前铁幕作为欧洲地理和政治的决策点的人，是对那个特定时期的迷恋，或者我想象是他们的历史或地理老师对那个时期的迷恋。否则，我无法想象为什么还这么用。
You must separate culture from politics and geography, as they can all result in conflicting definitions.
I'd rather use the cardinal directions just for geography to avoid misunderstandings.
你必须区分文化和政治和地理，因为它们都可能导致相互矛盾的定义。
我宁愿用最基本的方向来做地理问题，以避免产生误解。
You can safely assume that most Germans (and probably most Western Europeans in general) largely agree with Americans definition. You only need to further divide the western part into north, south and west.
Not only that, the UN definition largely agrees with it also. The division between eastern and western european is mostly cultural not geographical. Really, the only people on earth that don't think that Poland, Czech Republic etc. are in eastern europe are eastern europeans themselves.
你可以有把握地认为，大多数德国人（可能还有一般的大多数西欧人）基本上同意美国人的定义。你只需要把西部进一步划分为北部、南部和西部。
不仅如此，联合国的定义也基本同意。东欧和西欧之间的划分主要是文化上的，而不是地理上的。真的，地球上唯一不认为波兰、捷克等属于东欧的人是东欧人自己。
Agreed, it's a cultural term, which also happens to coincide loosely with geography in Europe.
Hence why Australia is located in south-east Asia, but no one doubts their a Western country
我同意，这是一个文化术语，它也恰好与欧洲的地理位置大致重合。
因此，为什么澳大利亚位于东南亚，但没有人怀疑他们是一个西方国家
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Can you cite the UN definition?
For me as a Russian, it is mind boggling to list any country except Russia, Ukraine and Belarus as Eastern European. We're thousands of kilometers apart from the Czechs, we're culturally different from the Poles and we're nothing like messy Balkans.
The Czechs, Hungarians, Poles, even Slovaks share more history with Germans than with Russia. The only thing we have in common is recent communist history and mentality in some respects.
你能举出联合国的定义吗？
对我这个俄罗斯人来说，把除了俄罗斯、乌克兰和白俄罗斯之外的任何国家列为东欧国家是令人费解的。我们与捷克人相距数千公里，我们与波兰人的文化不同，我们与混乱的巴尔干地区完全不同。
捷克人、匈牙利人、波兰人，甚至斯洛伐克人与德国人共享的历史比与俄罗斯共享的更多。我们唯一的共同点是最近的共产主义历史和在某些方面的心态。
The defintion I’ve always heard here in Switzerland was that there’s an Eastern Europe and a Western Europe and what separates them is where the Iron Curtain used to be, with the Balkans falling on the east side.
我在瑞士一直听到的定义是，有一个东欧和一个西欧，将它们分开的地方是过去的铁幕，巴尔干半岛位于东侧。
Yeah right, the cold war thinking. Since Switzerland was neither NATO nor Warsaw Pact, I suppose the Swiss were Central Europe (together with Finns).
是的，这是冷战的想法。由于瑞士既不是北约，也不是华沙条约，我想瑞士是中欧（和芬兰人一样）。
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Honestly, no. We never used the term “Central”. There was Eastern and Western Europe, and Western Europe also vaguely had a North (Scandinavia) and a South (Italy and Spain), but there was no central Europe.
说实话，没有。我们从未使用过"中部"这个词。有东欧和西欧，而西欧也隐约有一个北方（斯堪的纳维亚）和一个南方（意大利和西班牙），但没有中欧。
Being in NATO or not had no impact on the iron curtain line. It’s not a “Nato = western” definition, it’s a “in Europe and not within the curtain = western” definition. The Warsaw pact is only indirectly involved in the definition by it being the cause of the iron curtain with its members being inside it.
加入北约与否对铁幕线没有影响。这不是一个"北约=西方"的定义，而是一个"在欧洲，不在铁幕内=西方"的定义。华沙条约组织只是间接参与了这个定义，因为它是铁幕的原因，其成员在铁幕内。
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I grew up in England, Germany, Ireland and Spain. It’s not just Americans. Anything east of Germany has been shorthand for Eastern Europe. There wasn’t a central Europe. The east was cut off from us. We knew ZERO about people to the east. My parents had traveled all over the world and saw a lot places, but Eastern Europe was a gaping hole in our knowledge, at least in my formative years.
That knowledge base didn’t naturally improve and that perspective has significantly changed in the 21st Century. Most of what was Western Europe still see Europe in terms of an east/west divide. I don’t think it’s an us vs them mentality anymore. I think that died out in the 90’s as limited information came out. But the divide in how Europe is categorized hasn’t largely changed. A lot of Western Europeans can’t tell the difference between old Eastern European countries.
我在英国、德国、爱尔兰和西班牙长大。这不仅仅是美国人的印象。德国以东的任何地方都是东欧的简称。当时没有一个中欧。东方与我们隔绝。我们对东边的人一无所知。我的父母走遍了世界各地，看到了很多地方，但东欧是我们知识中的一个缺口，至少在我成长的年代是这样。
这种知识基础并没有自然改善，这种观点在21世纪发生了重大变化。西欧的大部分地区仍然以东西方分界线的方式看待欧洲。不过我不认为这是一个“我们与他们”的心态了。我认为这在90年代随着有限信息的出现而消亡了。但是，欧洲的分类方式的鸿沟在很大程度上没有改变。很多西欧人分不清老东欧国家之间的区别。
But countries like Slovenia and Czechia are very prosperous and on the level of Western European countries. Plus, many countries formerly behind the Iron Curtain are doing well and will be extremely developed soon.
The bottom two images are wrong anyway because Turkey was an American ally and part of NATO. One of the first implementations of Truman’s containment policy post-WW2 was aid to Turkey.
但像斯洛文尼亚和捷克这样的国家是非常繁荣的，与西欧国家的水平相当。另外，许多以前在铁幕后的国家都做得很好，很快就会变得非常发达。
反正下面两张图片是错误的，因为土耳其是美国的盟友，是北约的一部分。二战后杜鲁门遏制政策的最早实施之一就是对土耳其的援助。
I’m not surprised they are pissed about it.
Czechoslovakia was one of the richest nations before WW2. And even now, as far as I know, it is doing much better than the actual East Europe.
It’s no West, but… They are in the middle. In more way than one.
我并不惊讶他们对此感到愤怒。
捷克斯洛伐克在二战前是最富裕的国家之一。即使是现在，据我所知，它也比实际的东欧国家好得多。
它不是西方国家，但是......他们处于中间位置。从各方面来说。