为什么西欧人不像过去那样大量移民到美洲?
Why do Western Europeans not emigrate to America in massive numbers like they used to?
译文简介
我们不想移民到美国，因为西欧的生活更好。你可以来意大利、法国、德国和英国这四个国家亲眼看看。
正文翻译
Why do Western Europeans not emigrate to America in massive numbers like they used to?
为什么西欧人不像过去那样大量移民到美洲?
为什么西欧人不像过去那样大量移民到美洲?
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Europeans are a crafty bunch not burdened by the idea “our way is the best way”. This is a legacy of the Roman Empire really, whenever Romans found something that was better abroad they took a good hard look, injected their own insight and adopted it without question.
This is how the Roman Legion looked like before they met the Samnites, who fought in maniples
In late 19th and early 20th century Europe found the American way of doing things was superior to how Europeans did things. They took a good, hard look, copied what was useful, improved what could be improved and implemented changes that made Europe simply superior to America for anyone who isn’t a professional duchebag. Some still move the the states because their specific skillset is better suited to what America has to offer and there’s good money to be made for them specifically, but you won’t see European working class folks going anywhere anytime soon. Western Europe is unequivocally the best place to be if you’re anywhere from poor to upper middle class and certainly good enough for all the rest.
Tomaž Vargazon, 无神论践行者
欧洲人是一群狡猾的人，他们并不为“我们的方式就是最好的方式”这一理念所累。这确实是罗马帝国的遗产，无论何时罗马人在国外发现更好的东西他们都会认真研究，注入自己的见解，毫无疑问地采纳。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
图：这是罗马军团在遇到萨谟奈特人之前的样子，萨谟奈特人以战团作战
在19世纪末和20世纪初，欧洲发现美国的做事方式优于欧洲人。他们仔细观察，复制有用的东西，改进可以改进的东西，实施改变，使欧洲在任何即使不是专业人士眼中都比美国优越。
一些人仍然迁往美国，因为他们的特殊技能更适合美国提供的东西，而且他们特别能赚到很多钱，但你不会看到欧洲工人阶级很快离开任何地方。如果你是穷人到中上层阶级的任何阶层，西欧无疑是最好的地方，当然对其他所有人来说也都足够好。
That… feels simplistic. If that were the case, then why doesn’t everybody in the world just move to Europe?
I think a better answer is simply that emigrating is a lot of work and people only do that whenever they have a clear push to do so.
感觉被简单化了。如果是这样的话，为什么世界上的人不都搬到欧洲去呢?
我认为更好的答案是，移民是一项繁重的工作，人们只有在有明确推动力的时候才会这么做。
Regular news about migrant ships sinking with hundreds of deaths in sight of European shores answers your question in more ways than one.
关于移民船在欧洲海岸附近沉没、数百人死亡的定期新闻从多个方面回答了你的问题。
They confirm my point, if anything: the environment in their home countries gives them a clear push to emigrate. The lack of similarly sized scores of people from other developed countries (Japan, South Korea, the USA…) also corroborates my statement.
他们证实了我的观点，如果说有什么不同的话:他们本国的环境给了他们移民的明确动力。
来自其他发达国家(日本、韩国、美国……)的类似人数的缺乏也证实了我的说法。
Language too. I guess we would indeed see some Americans moving to Europe if the language was the same, and immigration was easy. Then again, restricted immigration is one of the reasons Europe keeps being a good destination. Social security nets would burst quickly otherwise.
语言也是问题。我想，如果语言一样的话，我们确实会看到一些美国人搬到欧洲去，移民也更容易。
然而，限制移民正是欧洲一直是一个好目的地的原因之一。否则，社会保障体系将迅速崩溃。
I believe it was Publius Ovidius Naso (Ovid) who once wrote “Fas est et ab hoste doceri” which is a loose translated as “It is right to learn, even from the enemy.” which showed how the Romans felt about learning.
我记得是奥维德(Publius Ovidius Naso)写过《Fas est et ab hoste doceri》，大致翻译为“学习是正确的，即使是向敌人学习。”展示了罗马人对学习的看法。
Yeah, but when the Chinese did some of that we saw fire breathing hatred and accusation that they copied everything of value. You see, Americans don’t need to learn anything.
是的，但是当中国人这么做的时候，我们看到了针对他们的仇恨和指责，他们复制了所有有价值的东西。
你看，美国人不需要学习任何东西。
Well the US did a lot of copying and then adaptation before becoming the reference. The Japanese did the same and so did a number of countries who have come on in bounds and leaps notably China. It is standard practice.
在成为参考之前，美国也进行了大量的复制和适应。日本也做了同样的事情，许多国家也做了同样的事情，尤其是中国。这是标准做法。
Can’t agree more. We all start somewhere, but eventually when one learned enough they cut their own path in order to grow. There are already countries and companies copying Chinese practices already.
不能同意更多。我们都从某个地方开始，但最终当一个人学得足够多时，他们会开辟自己的道路来成长。已经有一些国家和公司在模仿中国的做法。
I think the complaints about China copying things is about stolen intellectual property.
我认为针对中国模仿的抱怨是关于XX获取知识产权方面的。
Using the term, Intellectual Property, is a way to bash China. All countries copied from others at one time or another. The west copied many key Chinese inventions, like explosives, paper, porcelain, tea, printing, silk, etc. At the time, Chinese emperors also considered the technologies are strategically valuable, and anyone caught exporting them are punished by death. Closer to our time, Americans copied much of industrialization techniques from the British. Later, Americans, Russians, British, and French copied German technologies, and even captured German scientists in the process. Heck, I’m sure China will soon complain about others violating its IP, since there are more Chinese patents filed annually than anyone else.
使用“知识产权”一词是抨击中国的一种方式。所有的国家都曾经抄袭过其他国家。西方复制了中国的许多重要发明，如炸药、纸张、瓷器、茶叶、印刷术、丝绸等。
当时，中国的皇帝也认为这些技术具有战略价值，任何出口这些技术的人被发现都会被处以死刑。在更接近我们的时代，美国人从英国那里复制了很多工业化技术。
后来，美国人、俄罗斯人、英国人和法国人复制了德国的技术，甚至在这个过程中俘虏了德国科学家。见鬼，我相信中国很快就会抱怨其他国家侵犯其知识产权，因为中国每年申请的专利比其他任何国家都多。
But if the west does it it’s OK!!!
但是如果西方这样做了，那是没问题的! /笑
For hungarian working class people. It’s easier to go to middle or west european countries. If something goes wrong, they can easly go home but to change a whole continent it’s a bigger issue. If what I recall from history is right then most euopeans went to the US to get out from the feudal society or war. Today neither appears in the EU. I’m not sure how many ukrainians leave their country but my guess they either migrate inside their own country or go to another, culturaly similar country.
作为匈牙利工人阶级人民，去中欧或西欧国家比较容易。如果出了问题，他们可以轻松回家，但要跨越整个大陆，这是一个更大的问题。
如果我对历史的记忆的是正确的，大多数欧洲人去美国是为了摆脱封建社会或战争。如今，这两种情况都没有出现在欧盟。
我不确定有多少乌克兰人离开了他们的国家，但我猜他们要么移居到自己的国家其他地方，要么去了另一个文化相似的国家。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
In late 19th and early 20th century Europe found the American way of doing things was superior to how Europeans did thing
That’s false, actually. Capitalism went from Europe to US. Socialism got invented in Europe, instituted in USSR, copied to Western Europe as Social Democracy (despite that existed) and things were settled.
There isnt anything that Europe copied from US in those centuries. Even the ideas in American Revolution were developed in France during Enlightenment.
“19世纪末和20世纪初，欧洲发现美国的行事方式优于欧洲”
这话是错的。资本主义从欧洲走向了美国。社会主义在欧洲发明，在苏联建立，复制到西欧成为社会民主主义，事情就是这样。
在那几个世纪里，欧洲没有抄袭美国的任何东西。即使是美国革命时期的思想也是在法国启蒙时期发展起来的。
American salaries are still crazy high even after accounting to cost of living and lot of worlds best companies are still in US.
None of EU countries come close. They don't migrate because US is not accepting them anymore just because of their whiteness, it's impossible for 99.99% people according to current immigration systems.
即使算上生活成本，美国的工资仍然高得离谱，许多世界上最好的公司仍在美国。
没有一个欧盟国家能做到这一点。他们不移民是因为美国不再仅仅因为他们是白人就接纳他们，根据目前的移民制度，这对99.99%的人来说是不可能的。
After a certain point more money enters the law of diminishing returns. This is different for everyone, but the overwhelming majority of people agree regular vacations, affordable healthcare, safe streets, quality food, reliable employment and reliable retirement combined trump a little extra in your pocket every month.
By some silly factor too.
过了某个点，更多的钱就进入了收益递减规律。这个点对每个人来说都不一样，但绝大多数人都同意，定期的假期、负担得起的医疗保健、安全的街道、优质的食物、可靠的工作和可靠的退休生活加在一起，比每月口袋里的一点额外收入更重要。
There's that, but his notion of salaries in the U.S. is also wildly exaggerated. He's looking at prestigious employers like Google, which can afford to be sextive, in a few very specific areas of the country where the costs of living are correspondingly, absurdly high.
His idea of incomes in the U.S. sounds more like it's coming from the kind of spiel a recruiter would give, not reality on the ground here in the actual U.S.
确实是这样，但他对美国工资的看法太夸张了。他的视角是以谷歌这样的知名雇主出发的，但这些地区的生活成本也相应地高得离谱。
他对美国收入的看法听起来更像是来自招聘人员的那种夸夸其谈，而不是美国的实际情况
Great news, this, that “American salaries are … crazy high”. Having worked in the corporate world here in the U.S for 25 years I've yet to see who's garnering these “crazy high” salaries, besides the denizens of corner offices.
Can you let me in on the secret — where are all these crazy high salaries to be had?
这消息棒极了，“美国人的工资……高得离谱”。
在美国的企业界工作了25年，我还没有看到谁获得了这么“离谱”的高薪，除了那些角落办公室的员工。
你能告诉我秘密吗——这些高得离谱的薪水都到哪里去了?
Come to “the high tech" where 200k is seen as normal. Not only in Silicon Valley, but in many other places. 80$-90$ per hour as contractor in no-state-tax cities is amazing if the person is young and don't need healthcare benefits.
I'm talking about people who are highly skilled who don't have opportunities in these countries how much ever skill they have. :)
I, as a programmer can't make much (like literally less than 100k) even if I work at Google Germany where as the same Google pays 300k USD in SFO if I prove my worth. Many highly skilled professions like doctors etc are also paid double or triple compared to many developed countries.
来看看“高科技”，在那里20万（年薪）被视为正常。不仅在硅谷，而且在许多其他地方也是如此。
在没有州税的城市里，作为承包商每小时80 -90美元，如果这个人是年轻人，不需要医疗保险，那真是太棒了。
我说的是那些高技能的人，在自己国家没有太多自己的技能可以赚取高新的机会。
作为一名程序员，如果我在德国谷歌工作，即便我能证明自己的价值，谷歌只会支付10万美元年薪，相比之下，在旧金山同样的谷歌可以支付30万美元的年薪。
与许多发达国家相比，许多高技能职业，如医生等的薪水是他们的两倍或三倍。
I work in tech and have been for decades. Those high salaries are the norm only in hot tech hubs, where — suprise — costs of living are also very high. And, even there, you'd have to be very skilled and very in demand to fetch $80-90/hr. I could post today for a mid-level developer position for half that and have several eager applicants by end of day.
Look also at the cost of housing around Silicon Valley, Seattle, and Austin, TX, and you'll see why salaries have to be that high. In most places, they're not. And, guess what? You are paying your health insurance and deductibles, which in Germany you don't have. You're paying not just Federal but also state and local taxes, in addition to property and sales taxes. And you must keep a car in order to get to work, which in most European cities you don't have to rely on.
If you have kids, up goes your health care costs, and you carry the cost of child care if you want to work.
This isn't the land of milk and honey over here. At my level of experience I'd have a higher standard of living in most European countries. Make sure you look at the whole picture.
我在科技行业工作了几十年。只有在热门科技中心，高工资才是常态，而令人讶异的是，那里的生活成本也非常高。而且，即使在那里，你也必须非常熟练，并且非常抢手，才能拥有80-90美元/小时。我可以在今天发布一个中级开发人员的职位，一半的薪资，一天之内就会有好几个热切的申请人来申请。
再看看硅谷、西雅图和德克萨斯州奥斯汀周围的住房成本，你就会明白为什么工资必须这么高。在大多数地方不是这样的。你猜怎么着?你要支付你的医疗保险和免赔额，这在德国是没有的。你不仅要交联邦税，还要交州税和地方税，还有财产税和销售税。
你必须要有辆车才能去上班，而在欧洲的大多数城市，你根本不需要靠车去上班。如果你有了孩子，你的医疗保健成本就会上升，如果你想工作，你就需要承担儿童看护的成本。
这里不是牛奶和蜂蜜的土地。以我的经验来看，我在大多数欧洲国家的生活水平都要高一些。
确保你看到了整个画面。
There are better places to be upper middle class. For example, in Latin america. You get to live in a place with good weather, cheap labor cost (you can have a cleaning lady every day, a baby sitter every day), good food and so on.
The catch here is that it is more difficult to become upper middle class. It is just less likely.
有更好的地方可以成为中上阶层。例如，在拉丁美洲。你可以住在一个天气好的地方，廉价的劳动力成本(你可以有一个清洁女工，有一个保姆)，好的食物等等。
这里的问题是，成为中上阶层更加困难，可能性更小。
As an Asian I agree. For upper middle class folks Id say the US is the place to be if you want to make even more money.
But if you just want to enjoy life, Latin America or Asia is the place to be.
作为一个亚洲人，我同意。对于中上阶层的人来说，如果你想赚更多的钱，我会说美国是你该去的地方。
但如果你只是想享受生活，拉丁美洲或亚洲是最好的选择。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Yes, like in Venezuela or Myanmar.
是的，就像在委内瑞拉或缅甸。
Like Brazil and Thailand.
Venezuela and Myanmar are shit holes outliers
比如巴西和泰国。
委内瑞拉和缅甸是屎坑。
As of late April, every American who wants the vaccine has received it. Unlike most of Europe. So, there’s that.
截至4月底，每个想要疫苗的美国人都得到了疫苗。不像大多数欧洲国家。所以，这就是事实。
Here’s the reason why:
原因在于：
图：全球各国/地区疫苗生产和出口情况，绿色为国内使用量，紫色为出口量
欧盟是世界公民，允许大量疫苗出口。美国和英国是民族主义混蛋，禁止出口直到他们得到服务。一个人可以为此感到高兴，但也没有什么值得骄傲的。
Dousing the fire in your own home, rather than drying out the well spraying water on your neighbours’ would have been a better strategy.
You can condemn the USA and the UK for vaccine nationalism but their life is back to normal due to their can do attitude and fast vaccine rollout, and thats a success story!
6 months later, am still locked at home in Germany and reading about politicians quibbling over how much more regulations should be rolled out! I’d rather be happy than foster a false sense of pride.
先扑灭自己家里的火，而不是把井水喷到邻居的身上会是一个更好的策略。
你可以谴责美国和英国的疫苗民族主义，但他们的生活已经恢复正常，因为他们的态度和快速疫苗推出，这是一个成功的故事!
6个月过去了，人们仍困在德国的家中，读到政客们在争论应该出台多少监管措施! 我宁愿快乐也不愿培养一种虚假的自豪感。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Nothing wrong with being a nationalist ‘prick’. The US just isn’t exporting their vaccine technology to everyone else. That’s the main problem.
做一个民族主义“混蛋”没什么错。美国只是没有向其他国家出口他们的疫苗技术。这是主要问题。
Being a nationalist prick I can tollerate, but bragging about it is a tad far.
作为一个民族主义的混蛋，我可以忍受，但吹嘘它有点太过了。
Not only that, but vaccination rates in America have dropped off. Every one who is going to get it has got it. But were still stock piling it.
Ignorant Americans are fueling the pandemic while the rest of the world burns for the vaccine.
Deplorables.
不仅如此，美国的疫苗接种率也下降了。每个想得到它的人都得到了它，但仍在囤积。
无知的美国人正在助长这一疫情，而世界上的其他人却在为疫苗而疯狂。
可悲。
Much of the immigration from Europe to the New world (and Africa) was motivated by adverse conditions in Europe at the time — wars, conscxtion, discrimination, oppression, poverty, famine — which no longer are present. As mentioned by others, this was an individual decision based on individual circumstances.
In addition, immigration laws in the USA were much less restrictive in the early part of the 20th century than subsequently, affecting the relative hardship of emigrating compared to perceived benefit of relocation.
Opportunities for low skilled workers have also progressively decreased since mid 20th century.
大部分从欧洲移民到新大陆(和非洲)的动机是当时欧洲的不利条件——战争、征兵、歧视、压迫、贫穷、饥荒——现在已经不复存在。
正如其他人提到的，这是基于个人情况的个人决定。此外，美国移民法在20世纪早期的限制比后来要少得多，这影响了移民的难度。
自20世纪中期以来，低技能工人的机会也在逐渐减少。
A: We don’t see the point.
We’re no longer starving or suffering under tyrants. We have healthcare, social safety nets, strong unxs and sensible wages. Sure, we would maybe get better pay in the US and lower taxes, but would instead have to pay the same money (if not more) in service fees.
So we really don’t see the point of mass migration to the US.
We also suspect that we would not like it there. The US mentality seems too alien to us.
Besides, you have practically closed the border.
Krister Sundelin, 电子学习生产商(2020-至今)
A:我们看不出有什么意义。
我们不再在暴君的统治下挨饿受苦。我们拥有医疗保健、社会保障网络、强大的工会和合理的工资。当然，我们在美国可能会得到更好的薪酬和更低的税收，但我们将在小费上不得不支付相同的钱(如果不是更多的话)。
所以我们真的看不到大规模移民到美国的意义。我们也怀疑我们不会喜欢呆在那里。美国人的心态对我们来说似乎太陌生了。
而且，你们实际上已经关闭了边境。
The US seemed like the future, once. Not any more.
美国一度似乎代表着未来，但再也不是了。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
The United States, a country with a great future behind it.
美国，一个有着伟大未来的国家。
You’re not wrong, in the 1980’s I wanted to be an American so much. Now ? nah.
你说的没错，在20世纪80年代，我非常想成为一个美国人。现在?算了吧。
Who on earth would want to live in a country where you could be shot at any time, where the food you eat and feed to babies contains toxic chemicals,where you could possibly not even have clean water? The America that I knew and loved fifty years ago has long gone.Sacrificed on the altar of greed.
谁会愿意生活在一个随时可能被射杀的国家，一个你吃的和喂给婴儿的食物都含有有毒化学物质的国家，一个你甚至可能没有干净的水的国家?
50年前我所了解和热爱的美国已经一去不复返了, 牺牲在了贪婪的祭坛上。
Because it’s no longer possible to claim vast amounts of land and natural resources for free (once the native inhabitants had been killed or driven off).
因为再也不可能免费索取大量土地和自然资源了(当地居民被杀害或驱逐)。
Not to mention that any increased pay is swallowed up in healthcare insurance and costs.
更不用说任何增加的工资都被医疗保险和成本吞噬了。
Nobody cares. This is a serious question?
No …it’s a plant to bash America. So gleeful are the Euers to bash their brother. As ifWe don’t do it enough ourselves? Give me a break.
没有人在乎。这是个严肃的问题吗?
不是，不过是一连串抨击美国的戏法。欧洲人痛击他们的兄弟该有多高兴啊。
好像我们自己做得不够似的?得了吧。
It wasn’t really a scathing answer. I basically agree with the points he raised. Wages are a bit higher in the US but so are a lot of costs and the culture is quite different. There’s just not that many pros to the cons
这并不是一个严肃的问答。
我基本上同意他提出的观点。美国的工资要高一些，但成本也很高，文化也很不同。
这里只是没有那么多的利和弊。
Exactly…I mean, cities like Boston, Washington, New York, Philadelphia or San Francisco have lot of culture, and places to discover, but none of these have same opportunities like European cities have. I mean, I live in Prague, city rich with culture, nature and history, but 2 hours in any direction, I can be in another very rich city with different feel. Different cultures, languages and habits are what makes Europe (and I hope someday one European country) so unique. We are so different, yet because of history so similar in so many aspects.
我的意思是，像波士顿、华盛顿、纽约、费城或旧金山这样的城市有很多文化和地方值得探索，但是这些城市都没有欧洲城市那样的机会。
我的意思是，我住在布拉格，这座城市有着丰富的文化、自然和历史，但无论往哪个方向走两个小时，我都可以到达另一座非常悠久的城市，有不同的感受。不同的文化、语言和习惯使欧洲如此独特。
我们是如此的不同，但因为历史，我们在很多方面是如此的相似。
USA is nice for holiday. I like rural USA. The cities are boring compared to European cities and work in the USA? I don't know about that. It feels like it is better in Europe too. The USA seems big to me, if not huge. It's too big to handle for me personally.
美国是度假的好地方。我喜欢美国农村。与欧洲城市相比，美国的城市兴许很无聊?我不知道。
感觉在欧洲更好。对我来说，美国似乎很大，如果不是很辽阔的话。
但这对我个人来说太大了。
The economics benefits of Europeans moving the the US in the late 1800s were staggering. I read that for southern Italian immigrants moving to the US, their pay was 11 times higher than in Italy!
19世纪末，欧洲人迁居美国，其经济效益令人震惊。我读到，移民到美国的意大利南部移民的薪水是意大利的11倍!
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o emigrate to the USA because life is better here in Western Europe. Come and see for yourself, through Italy, France, Germany and all four countries of the United Kingdom. The diversity of cultures is fabulous, why would anyone want to move to somewhere like USA?
我们不想移民到美国，因为西欧的生活更好。你可以来意大利、法国、德国和英国这四个国家亲眼看看。
文化的多样性是惊人的，为什么会有人想搬到像美国这样的地方?