罗马人对中国人有多了解？
What did the romans know about the chinese?
译文简介
我在想，罗马人知道什么？他们甚至听说过印度以东有一个帝国吗？他们是否也曾试图向中国派遣使节？
正文翻译
What did the romans know about the chinese?
罗马人对中国人了解多少？
罗马人对中国人了解多少？
I've seen many videos on the subject regarding what the chinese knew about the Roman Empire, and their one failed mission to establish diplomatic connections with Rome.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koVj0GwBWt8
But I am wondering, what did the romans know? Had they even heard of an empire east of India? Did they ever try to send envoys to China aswell?
我看过很多关于中国人对罗马帝国的了解，以及他们尝试与罗马建立外交关系的一次失败的任务的视频。
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koVj0GwBWt8。
但我在想，罗马人知道什么？他们甚至听说过印度以东有一个帝国吗？他们是否也曾试图向中国派遣使节？
但我在想，罗马人知道什么？他们甚至听说过印度以东有一个帝国吗？他们是否也曾试图向中国派遣使节？
评论翻译
skyler_on_the_moon
Why did they call Rome Daqin? Does that mean something in Chinese?
他们为什么叫罗马大秦？这在中文里意味着什么吗？
Why did they call Rome Daqin? Does that mean something in Chinese?
他们为什么叫罗马大秦？这在中文里意味着什么吗？
ShadowFear219
It means "great China." Imperial China thought of themselves as a the greatest and most powerful civilization and when hearing of the Roman Empire they named them after themselves due to its size and culture.
它的意思是 "伟大的中国"。帝国中国认为自己是最伟大最强大的文明，当听说到罗马帝国时，由于罗马帝国的规模和文化，他们以自己的名字为之命名。
It means "great China." Imperial China thought of themselves as a the greatest and most powerful civilization and when hearing of the Roman Empire they named them after themselves due to its size and culture.
它的意思是 "伟大的中国"。帝国中国认为自己是最伟大最强大的文明，当听说到罗马帝国时，由于罗马帝国的规模和文化，他们以自己的名字为之命名。
Lord_of_Atlantis
So, kind of like the Romans naming China "East Rome"?
所以这就像罗马人把中国命名为“东罗马”？
So, kind of like the Romans naming China "East Rome"?
所以这就像罗马人把中国命名为“东罗马”？
widget66
Kinda except the Romans and the Chinese were both peak civilizations in their respective regions.
有点类似于双方都认为自己是自己区域文明的巅峰。
Kinda except the Romans and the Chinese were both peak civilizations in their respective regions.
有点类似于双方都认为自己是自己区域文明的巅峰。
WelcomeToFungietown
To add to what others have said: China at the time was very influenced by Daoism and the concept of Yin Yang, so the idea of another "great China" existing on the other side of the world, like their mirror image, made a lot of sense to them.
补充一下其他人所说的话。当时的中国深受道教和阴阳观念的影响，因此，在世界的另一端存在另一个 "伟大的中国"的想法，就像他们的镜像一样，这对他们来说很有意义。
To add to what others have said: China at the time was very influenced by Daoism and the concept of Yin Yang, so the idea of another "great China" existing on the other side of the world, like their mirror image, made a lot of sense to them.
补充一下其他人所说的话。当时的中国深受道教和阴阳观念的影响，因此，在世界的另一端存在另一个 "伟大的中国"的想法，就像他们的镜像一样，这对他们来说很有意义。
geniculus
As I recall, it mean Great Qin (referring to the earlier Chinese dynasty). It was some form of respect for a similarly wealthy empire.
我记得，它是指大秦（指中国早期的王朝）。 这是对同样富有的帝国的某种尊重。
As I recall, it mean Great Qin (referring to the earlier Chinese dynasty). It was some form of respect for a similarly wealthy empire.
我记得，它是指大秦（指中国早期的王朝）。 这是对同样富有的帝国的某种尊重。
maekyntol
That the contemporary pronunciation but it's hard to pinpoint how it was pronounced during that time, 2000 years ago .
那是当代的发音，但很难确定它在2000年前的那个时代是如何发音的。
That the contemporary pronunciation but it's hard to pinpoint how it was pronounced during that time, 2000 years ago .
那是当代的发音，但很难确定它在2000年前的那个时代是如何发音的。
[dexed]
This is correct. Ancient Chinese, like the ancient versions of any contemporary language, likely sounded very different from what we are used to hearing today.
没错。古代汉语，就像任何当代语言的古代版本一样，很可能与我们今天习惯听到的声音大相径庭。
This is correct. Ancient Chinese, like the ancient versions of any contemporary language, likely sounded very different from what we are used to hearing today.
没错。古代汉语，就像任何当代语言的古代版本一样，很可能与我们今天习惯听到的声音大相径庭。
monetaryhighway
When Da is put in front it sometimes it means "most big"
"Mei nu" - beautiful "Da mei nu" - big beautiful, which they mean as the "the most beautiful"
当大被放在前面时，有时它的意思是“最大”
“美女”-美丽的，“大美女”-大美女，他们的意思是“最美的”
When Da is put in front it sometimes it means "most big"
"Mei nu" - beautiful "Da mei nu" - big beautiful, which they mean as the "the most beautiful"
当大被放在前面时，有时它的意思是“最大”
“美女”-美丽的，“大美女”-大美女，他们的意思是“最美的”
Clevererer
Da means either 'big' or 'great' . It doesn't really mean 'most'.
Da意思是“大”或“强”。 并不是“最”的意思。
Da means either 'big' or 'great' . It doesn't really mean 'most'.
Da意思是“大”或“强”。 并不是“最”的意思。
SYLOH
Dà 大 is not a superlative.
Dà 大 is not a superlative.
It means big or great, but does not imply biggest or greatest.
For those usages they'd add in the word Zuì 最 which means "most", but it can modify any adjective.
大不是最高级的。意思是大或强，但并不意味着最大或最强。 对于那些用法，他们会用“最”字表示是顶级的，但它 但它可以修饰任何形容词。
For those usages they'd add in the word Zuì 最 which means "most", but it can modify any adjective.
大不是最高级的。意思是大或强，但并不意味着最大或最强。 对于那些用法，他们会用“最”字表示是顶级的，但它 但它可以修饰任何形容词。
consiliac
It doesn't make much sense to map modern Chinese usage onto ancient Chinese. The interpretation and nuance of characters have changed drastically over the intervening 2000 years.
把现代汉语的用法映射到古代汉语上，意义不大。在这2000年里，汉字的解释和细微差别已经发生了巨大的变化。
It doesn't make much sense to map modern Chinese usage onto ancient Chinese. The interpretation and nuance of characters have changed drastically over the intervening 2000 years.
把现代汉语的用法映射到古代汉语上，意义不大。在这2000年里，汉字的解释和细微差别已经发生了巨大的变化。
Jack1715
Their where supposedly Roman merchants that went to China for silk and meet their emperor and took notes about their society
有所谓的罗马商人去中国买丝绸，会见他们的皇帝，并记录了他们的社会
Their where supposedly Roman merchants that went to China for silk and meet their emperor and took notes about their society
有所谓的罗马商人去中国买丝绸，会见他们的皇帝，并记录了他们的社会
countermereology
The village is in Gansu province. Part of the local legend stems from the fact that many of the villagers have some unusual features, including green/blue eyes, and the local dialect spoken in the village contains some strange words which were said to have come from Latin.
Sadly, I seem to recall genetic tests were done a few years back, and they found that it was much more likely the villagers simply had Central Asian blood. Most of Gansu province is on the old Silk Road, so there was always a great deal of cultural and genetic intermixing that went on there, including with Turkic and other peoples. But unfortunately no evidence of a Roman legion.
该村位于甘肃省。当地传说的部分原因是，许多村民有一些不寻常的特征，包括绿色/蓝色的眼睛，村里说的当地方言包含一些奇怪的词语，据说这些词语来自拉丁语。
遗憾的是，我好像记得几年前做过基因检测，他们发现，这些村民更有可能只是有中亚人的血统。甘肃省大部分地区都在古老的丝绸之路上，所以那里一直有大量的文化和基因交融，包括与突厥等民族的交融。但遗憾的是没有发现罗马军团的证据。
The village is in Gansu province. Part of the local legend stems from the fact that many of the villagers have some unusual features, including green/blue eyes, and the local dialect spoken in the village contains some strange words which were said to have come from Latin.
Sadly, I seem to recall genetic tests were done a few years back, and they found that it was much more likely the villagers simply had Central Asian blood. Most of Gansu province is on the old Silk Road, so there was always a great deal of cultural and genetic intermixing that went on there, including with Turkic and other peoples. But unfortunately no evidence of a Roman legion.
该村位于甘肃省。当地传说的部分原因是，许多村民有一些不寻常的特征，包括绿色/蓝色的眼睛，村里说的当地方言包含一些奇怪的词语，据说这些词语来自拉丁语。
遗憾的是，我好像记得几年前做过基因检测，他们发现，这些村民更有可能只是有中亚人的血统。甘肃省大部分地区都在古老的丝绸之路上，所以那里一直有大量的文化和基因交融，包括与突厥等民族的交融。但遗憾的是没有发现罗马军团的证据。
FreyrDS
I genuinely enjoyed that movie. It was over the top, ridiculous and ofc not historical at all but it was really fun and entertaining. And the music was pretty good.
我真的很喜欢这部电影。虽然很夸张，很荒唐，也不符合历史，但真的很好玩，很有趣。而且音乐也很好听。
I genuinely enjoyed that movie. It was over the top, ridiculous and ofc not historical at all but it was really fun and entertaining. And the music was pretty good.
我真的很喜欢这部电影。虽然很夸张，很荒唐，也不符合历史，但真的很好玩，很有趣。而且音乐也很好听。
modi13
I believe this idea was originally based on a battle that took place in central Asia between the Chinese and soldiers who were described in a way that made them sound Roman. However, it's much more likely that they were from the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom, and were therefore of Greek descent and wearing Greek-style armour.
The fact that there were Greek kingdoms in central Asia and northern India that managed to maintain their language and culture, albeit modified by local customs, for 500 years is in itself a fascinating subject.
我相信这个想法最初是基于发生在中亚的的一场中国和士兵之间的战斗，他们的描述使他们听起来像罗马人。 然而，更有可能的是，他们来自希腊-巴克特里亚王国，因此是希腊后裔，穿着希腊式的盔甲。
中亚和印度北部有希腊王国，尽管被当地的风俗习惯所改变，但仍能保持其语言和文化达500年之久，这本身就是一个引人入胜的课题。
I believe this idea was originally based on a battle that took place in central Asia between the Chinese and soldiers who were described in a way that made them sound Roman. However, it's much more likely that they were from the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom, and were therefore of Greek descent and wearing Greek-style armour.
The fact that there were Greek kingdoms in central Asia and northern India that managed to maintain their language and culture, albeit modified by local customs, for 500 years is in itself a fascinating subject.
我相信这个想法最初是基于发生在中亚的的一场中国和士兵之间的战斗，他们的描述使他们听起来像罗马人。 然而，更有可能的是，他们来自希腊-巴克特里亚王国，因此是希腊后裔，穿着希腊式的盔甲。
中亚和印度北部有希腊王国，尽管被当地的风俗习惯所改变，但仍能保持其语言和文化达500年之久，这本身就是一个引人入胜的课题。
Tieb
Interestingly, researchers have found skeletons likely belonging to people who were ethnically Chinese from (relatively) shortly after the envoys that you reference, most recently in Britain.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/chinese-skeleton-discovery-roman-history-society-southwark-cemetery-asian-remains-a7330666.html
So it is possible that the Romans established closer ties with the Chinese than the written record indicates.
有趣的是，最近是在英国，研究人员已经发现了很可能属于你所提到的使节之后（相对）不久的中国人的骨骼。
Interestingly, researchers have found skeletons likely belonging to people who were ethnically Chinese from (relatively) shortly after the envoys that you reference, most recently in Britain.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/chinese-skeleton-discovery-roman-history-society-southwark-cemetery-asian-remains-a7330666.html
So it is possible that the Romans established closer ties with the Chinese than the written record indicates.
有趣的是，最近是在英国，研究人员已经发现了很可能属于你所提到的使节之后（相对）不久的中国人的骨骼。
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/chinese-skeleton-discovery-roman-history-society-southwark-cemetery-asian-remains-a7330666.html
所以，罗马人与中国人建立的关系有可能比文字记载的更密切。
所以，罗马人与中国人建立的关系有可能比文字记载的更密切。
widget66
Could you imagine growing up in China and then exploring all the way to Britain in that time period!? That would be wild.
About a $1200 round trip ticket now.
你能想象在那个时代在中国长大，然后一路探险到英国吗！？那太疯狂了。
现在往返机票大约都要1200美元。
Could you imagine growing up in China and then exploring all the way to Britain in that time period!? That would be wild.
About a $1200 round trip ticket now.
你能想象在那个时代在中国长大，然后一路探险到英国吗！？那太疯狂了。
现在往返机票大约都要1200美元。
countermereology
I tend to think this probably happened a lot more than we imagine. There were good roads and trade routes crisscrossing the whole Eurasian landmass at that time, so it's not as if you'd have to spend long periods of time in the bush. Of course, you'd have to worry about robberies and violence in some places, but if you were determined enough (or even just a poor, wandering beggar, itinerant musician, or a madman) you'd have at least some chance of making it pretty well anywhere you wanted.
Just as an example, if you want to walk from Ulaan Bataar in Mongolia to Paris along roads today, Google Maps currently estimates something like 1700 hours. Let's be conservative and double that to account for ancient roads. If you walk 8 hours a day, you'd make it in less than 2 years. Of course, if you had a horse or other animal, you'd move much faster.
Point being, some people must have done it. Obviously most people only travel for a reason: trade, war, diplomacy. But there are always the odd ones--missionaries, social misfits, or whatever--and I find it really hard to believe that it didn't occasionally happen, in the ancient and even the prehistoric world, that people would just end up travelling to the other side of Eurasia. And in the process, inadvertently bring with them culture and knowledge that might have resulted in cross-pollination.
我倾向于认为这种情况可能比我们想象的要多很多。当时有很好的道路和贸易路线纵横交错地横跨整个欧亚大陆，所以并不是说你要在丛林里呆很长时间。当然，你会不得不担心一些地方的抢劫和暴力，但如果你有足够的决心（甚至只是一个穷困潦倒的流浪乞丐、流动的音乐家或疯子），你至少有一定的机会去任何你想去的地方。
举个例子，如果你想从蒙古的乌兰巴托沿着今天的道路走到巴黎，谷歌地图目前估计大概需要1700小时。让我们保守一点，把这个数字翻倍，以考虑到古代道路。如果你每天走8个小时，不到2年就能走完。当然，如果你有一匹马或其他动物，你会走得更快。
重点是，有些人一定做到了。显然，大多数人旅行只是为了一个原因：贸易、战争、外交。但总有一些奇怪的人...传教士、社会的不合群者或其他什么人...我真的很难相信，在古代甚至史前世界里，不会偶尔发生这样的事情，人们最终会去欧亚大陆的另一边旅行。在这个过程中，不经意间带来了文化和知识，可能导致了交叉传播。
I tend to think this probably happened a lot more than we imagine. There were good roads and trade routes crisscrossing the whole Eurasian landmass at that time, so it's not as if you'd have to spend long periods of time in the bush. Of course, you'd have to worry about robberies and violence in some places, but if you were determined enough (or even just a poor, wandering beggar, itinerant musician, or a madman) you'd have at least some chance of making it pretty well anywhere you wanted.
Just as an example, if you want to walk from Ulaan Bataar in Mongolia to Paris along roads today, Google Maps currently estimates something like 1700 hours. Let's be conservative and double that to account for ancient roads. If you walk 8 hours a day, you'd make it in less than 2 years. Of course, if you had a horse or other animal, you'd move much faster.
Point being, some people must have done it. Obviously most people only travel for a reason: trade, war, diplomacy. But there are always the odd ones--missionaries, social misfits, or whatever--and I find it really hard to believe that it didn't occasionally happen, in the ancient and even the prehistoric world, that people would just end up travelling to the other side of Eurasia. And in the process, inadvertently bring with them culture and knowledge that might have resulted in cross-pollination.
我倾向于认为这种情况可能比我们想象的要多很多。当时有很好的道路和贸易路线纵横交错地横跨整个欧亚大陆，所以并不是说你要在丛林里呆很长时间。当然，你会不得不担心一些地方的抢劫和暴力，但如果你有足够的决心（甚至只是一个穷困潦倒的流浪乞丐、流动的音乐家或疯子），你至少有一定的机会去任何你想去的地方。
举个例子，如果你想从蒙古的乌兰巴托沿着今天的道路走到巴黎，谷歌地图目前估计大概需要1700小时。让我们保守一点，把这个数字翻倍，以考虑到古代道路。如果你每天走8个小时，不到2年就能走完。当然，如果你有一匹马或其他动物，你会走得更快。
重点是，有些人一定做到了。显然，大多数人旅行只是为了一个原因：贸易、战争、外交。但总有一些奇怪的人...传教士、社会的不合群者或其他什么人...我真的很难相信，在古代甚至史前世界里，不会偶尔发生这样的事情，人们最终会去欧亚大陆的另一边旅行。在这个过程中，不经意间带来了文化和知识，可能导致了交叉传播。
dejohan123
I imagine a village lunatic at the town square, proclaiming "I am going to the end of the world and back", and taking off, with a walking stick and a knapsack with two sandwiches.
我脑海里出现了一幅一个村子里的疯子在镇上的广场上宣布 "我要去世界的尽头，然后再回来"，然后拿着一根拐杖和一个装着两个三明治的背包走了的画面。
I imagine a village lunatic at the town square, proclaiming "I am going to the end of the world and back", and taking off, with a walking stick and a knapsack with two sandwiches.
我脑海里出现了一幅一个村子里的疯子在镇上的广场上宣布 "我要去世界的尽头，然后再回来"，然后拿着一根拐杖和一个装着两个三明治的背包走了的画面。
Lampmonster
And then coming back twenty years later with a bunch of crazy stories about strange lands.
然后二十年后带着一堆关于陌生土地的疯狂故事真的又回来了。
And then coming back twenty years later with a bunch of crazy stories about strange lands.
然后二十年后带着一堆关于陌生土地的疯狂故事真的又回来了。
dejohan123
And a wife and five weird looking kids.
还带着一位妻子和五个长相怪异的孩子。
And a wife and five weird looking kids.
还带着一位妻子和五个长相怪异的孩子。
Lampmonster
Who all speak like nine languages.
他们都能说九种语言。
Who all speak like nine languages.
他们都能说九种语言。
dejohan123
And can kick your ass with Kung-Fu
还会用功夫踢你的屁股
And can kick your ass with Kung-Fu
还会用功夫踢你的屁股
SheCouldFromFaceThat
Marco Polo, though he had more than the two sandwiches. At least three.
马可波罗，虽然他有两个三明治以上。至少三个。
Marco Polo, though he had more than the two sandwiches. At least three.
马可波罗，虽然他有两个三明治以上。至少三个。
Kingcrowing
Yeah but the historical record says one of those "sandwiches" Marco took was a Hot Dog, and is a hot dog REALLY a sandwich??
是啊，但历史记录显示马可吃的“三明治”之一是热狗，热狗真的是三明治吗？？
Yeah but the historical record says one of those "sandwiches" Marco took was a Hot Dog, and is a hot dog REALLY a sandwich??
是啊，但历史记录显示马可吃的“三明治”之一是热狗，热狗真的是三明治吗？？
SP12GG
About as much a sandwich as a taco is. So, yeah it is!
三明治和玉米卷差不多。所以，是的！
About as much a sandwich as a taco is. So, yeah it is!
三明治和玉米卷差不多。所以，是的！
SidewinderTV
I've genuinely considered taking a year off school and walking to Gibraltar (live on Sweden) just to see if I can make it.
我真的考虑过请一年假走去直布罗陀（住在瑞典），看看我能不能做到。
I've genuinely considered taking a year off school and walking to Gibraltar (live on Sweden) just to see if I can make it.
我真的考虑过请一年假走去直布罗陀（住在瑞典），看看我能不能做到。
bighairybalustrade
Of course, you'd have to worry about robberies and violence in some places,
I'd say you are vastly underestimating the dangers of this in almost all places en route. If a pre Caesarian Gaul left Paris in 80BC its highly likely he would be dead before making it through Germania.
Even discounting endemic banditry problems (which is how most local economies functioned in most places) as soon as language barriers and cultural differences mark you as an outsider, you will be a target. As soon as long distance travel takes on symbolic meaning and is done for purpose (ie religious pilgrimage) in Medi Europe such tales are common. Long distance travel was deliberate and done in numbers and with wealth behind you.
For a relatively brief period Pax Romana and the Han dynasty meant two powerful Empires had enough internal stability at the same time, to all an increase in travel between the two locations.
According to Strabo more than a hundred ships a year made the journey to the Indian Ocean from Roman held Egypt and its highly likely that travellers from China would have followed the same routes from the 2nd century AD (ie matching the dates of the skeletons lixed above). Until the industrial revolution travelling by river and by sea was usually the faster and cheaper option.
Getting to India from China was also likely no simple matter according to contemporary Chinese. They claimed that no previous generations had made if further than Gan Ying who likely only made it as far as Persia.
“当然，你得担心一些地方的抢劫和暴力”
我想说，你大大低估了这一过程中几乎所有地方的危险性。如果一个凯撒前的高卢人在公元前80年离开巴黎，他极有可能在通过日耳曼地区之前就已经死了。
即使不考虑地方性的土匪问题（这也是大多数地方经济运作的方式），只要语言障碍和文化差异将你标记为外来者，你就会成为目标。在中世纪的欧洲，一旦长途旅行有了象征意义，并且是出于目的（即宗教朝圣），这样的故事就很常见。长途旅行是有目的的，而且是在人数和财富的支持下进行的。
在相对短暂的时期内，罗马帝国和汉朝意味着两个强大的帝国同时具有足够的内部稳定性，这意味着两个地点之间的旅行都有了增加。
根据斯特拉波的说法，每年有超过一百艘船从罗马人控制的埃及出发前往印度洋，而且从公元2世纪开始，来自中国的旅行者也很有可能遵循同样的路线（即与上面链接说的中国人的骨架的日期相匹配）。在工业革命之前，通过河流和海路旅行通常是更快、更便宜的选择。
根据当时中国人的说法，从中国到印度也可能不是一件简单的事情。他们声称，没有谁比甘英走得更远，而甘英只去到了波斯。
Of course, you'd have to worry about robberies and violence in some places,
I'd say you are vastly underestimating the dangers of this in almost all places en route. If a pre Caesarian Gaul left Paris in 80BC its highly likely he would be dead before making it through Germania.
Even discounting endemic banditry problems (which is how most local economies functioned in most places) as soon as language barriers and cultural differences mark you as an outsider, you will be a target. As soon as long distance travel takes on symbolic meaning and is done for purpose (ie religious pilgrimage) in Medi Europe such tales are common. Long distance travel was deliberate and done in numbers and with wealth behind you.
For a relatively brief period Pax Romana and the Han dynasty meant two powerful Empires had enough internal stability at the same time, to all an increase in travel between the two locations.
According to Strabo more than a hundred ships a year made the journey to the Indian Ocean from Roman held Egypt and its highly likely that travellers from China would have followed the same routes from the 2nd century AD (ie matching the dates of the skeletons lixed above). Until the industrial revolution travelling by river and by sea was usually the faster and cheaper option.
Getting to India from China was also likely no simple matter according to contemporary Chinese. They claimed that no previous generations had made if further than Gan Ying who likely only made it as far as Persia.
“当然，你得担心一些地方的抢劫和暴力”
我想说，你大大低估了这一过程中几乎所有地方的危险性。如果一个凯撒前的高卢人在公元前80年离开巴黎，他极有可能在通过日耳曼地区之前就已经死了。
即使不考虑地方性的土匪问题（这也是大多数地方经济运作的方式），只要语言障碍和文化差异将你标记为外来者，你就会成为目标。在中世纪的欧洲，一旦长途旅行有了象征意义，并且是出于目的（即宗教朝圣），这样的故事就很常见。长途旅行是有目的的，而且是在人数和财富的支持下进行的。
在相对短暂的时期内，罗马帝国和汉朝意味着两个强大的帝国同时具有足够的内部稳定性，这意味着两个地点之间的旅行都有了增加。
根据斯特拉波的说法，每年有超过一百艘船从罗马人控制的埃及出发前往印度洋，而且从公元2世纪开始，来自中国的旅行者也很有可能遵循同样的路线（即与上面链接说的中国人的骨架的日期相匹配）。在工业革命之前，通过河流和海路旅行通常是更快、更便宜的选择。
根据当时中国人的说法，从中国到印度也可能不是一件简单的事情。他们声称，没有谁比甘英走得更远，而甘英只去到了波斯。
countermereology
Yes, I'm aware of the banditry problem. And certainly for the sort of people who left written records, it was true that you wouldn't want to travel without a lot of protection. But the sort of people who left written records were the sort of people bandits target. Mendicants, buskers and the like, on the other hand, would surely have been a complete waste of their time. I am just suggesting that for poor, marginal people like this, land travel may actually have been safer than for people with a bit of money to steal. Indeed, there are reports of wandering performers going pretty far--for example, a Roman circus troupe that seems to have performed for the king of Burma; not to mention, going further back, the Greek/Bactrian artisans who many now believe designed the terracotta warriors.
I wasn't actually thinking of the East Asian remains found in Britain specifically--and I agree, it's more likely they would have arrived by sea. I just think it's entirely possible there were a great deal of lowly people who were a lot more mobile than the upper classes themselves could afford to be, and who have been left out of the history books by virtue of their social background.
As for India and China, well, obviously there are physical barriers, but at the end of the day, Buddhism did spread very successfully from India into China, and Chinese pilgrims certainly managed to get to India from time to time. Perhaps no simple matter, but it was hardly impossible.
是的，我知道土匪的问题。当然，对于那种留下文字记录的人来说，如果没有很多保护措施，你确实不想进行长途旅行。但那种留下文字记录的人，就是土匪的目标。而乞丐、流浪艺人之类的人，则肯定是完全浪费土匪的时间。我只是想说，对于这种穷困潦倒的边缘人来说，陆路旅行其实可能比有点钱的人更安全。而且的确，有报道说流浪艺人走得很远--比如，一个罗马马戏团，似乎曾为缅甸国王表演过；更不用说，再往前追溯，希腊/巴克特里亚的工匠，现在很多人认为是他们设计了兵马俑。
其实我并没有特别想起在英国发现的东亚遗迹--我同意，它们更有可能是通过海路到达的。我只是觉得完全有可能是有大量的低等人，他们的流动性比上层阶级自己能承受的要大得多，而他们却因为社会背景而被历史书所遗忘。
至于印度和中国，好吧，显然有物理上的障碍，但说到底，佛教确实非常成功地从印度传播到了中国，中国的朝圣者当然也时常能到印度。也许不是简单的事情，但几乎没有不可能。
Yes, I'm aware of the banditry problem. And certainly for the sort of people who left written records, it was true that you wouldn't want to travel without a lot of protection. But the sort of people who left written records were the sort of people bandits target. Mendicants, buskers and the like, on the other hand, would surely have been a complete waste of their time. I am just suggesting that for poor, marginal people like this, land travel may actually have been safer than for people with a bit of money to steal. Indeed, there are reports of wandering performers going pretty far--for example, a Roman circus troupe that seems to have performed for the king of Burma; not to mention, going further back, the Greek/Bactrian artisans who many now believe designed the terracotta warriors.
I wasn't actually thinking of the East Asian remains found in Britain specifically--and I agree, it's more likely they would have arrived by sea. I just think it's entirely possible there were a great deal of lowly people who were a lot more mobile than the upper classes themselves could afford to be, and who have been left out of the history books by virtue of their social background.
As for India and China, well, obviously there are physical barriers, but at the end of the day, Buddhism did spread very successfully from India into China, and Chinese pilgrims certainly managed to get to India from time to time. Perhaps no simple matter, but it was hardly impossible.
是的，我知道土匪的问题。当然，对于那种留下文字记录的人来说，如果没有很多保护措施，你确实不想进行长途旅行。但那种留下文字记录的人，就是土匪的目标。而乞丐、流浪艺人之类的人，则肯定是完全浪费土匪的时间。我只是想说，对于这种穷困潦倒的边缘人来说，陆路旅行其实可能比有点钱的人更安全。而且的确，有报道说流浪艺人走得很远--比如，一个罗马马戏团，似乎曾为缅甸国王表演过；更不用说，再往前追溯，希腊/巴克特里亚的工匠，现在很多人认为是他们设计了兵马俑。
其实我并没有特别想起在英国发现的东亚遗迹--我同意，它们更有可能是通过海路到达的。我只是觉得完全有可能是有大量的低等人，他们的流动性比上层阶级自己能承受的要大得多，而他们却因为社会背景而被历史书所遗忘。
至于印度和中国，好吧，显然有物理上的障碍，但说到底，佛教确实非常成功地从印度传播到了中国，中国的朝圣者当然也时常能到印度。也许不是简单的事情，但几乎没有不可能。
bighairybalustrade
When slavery is ubiquitous, poor people are the commodity targeted. If you wish to travel and you don't have money, then you need to the ability to earn money or a skill to barter for shelter and food (one of your examples; itinerant minstrels are a trope in medi stories). That being the case you have value as a slave.
If fact there are theories that suggest the account of the performing circus troupe is about slaves; sold by Romans to the Burmese and trafficked as a commodity rather than having travelled. If I remember rightly the record of that is the Burmese king having them perform for a Chinese envoy.
I'd not heard the Terracotta Army one before though, if true, it is possibly via the same means. The Parthians would certainly have been in a position to sell slaves to the Chinese and both Parthians and Romans took countless thousands of them.
当奴隶制无处不在的时候，穷人就是被针对的商品。如果你想旅行，而你又没有钱，那么你就需要有赚钱的能力，或者有以物易物的技能来换取住处和食物（你的一个例子，流动吟游诗人是中世纪故事中的一个特例）。既然如此，你作为奴隶就有价值。
如果是事实，这里有一些理论表明，表演马戏团的描述是关于奴隶的；这些奴隶被罗马人卖给缅甸人，是作为商品贩卖，而不是旅行过去的。如果我没记错的话，记录的是缅甸国王让他们为中国使节表演。
不过兵马俑那个我以前没听说过，如果是真的，可能是通过同样的手段。帕提亚人肯定会有卖奴隶给中国人的条件，帕提亚人和罗马人都带走了无数的奴隶。
When slavery is ubiquitous, poor people are the commodity targeted. If you wish to travel and you don't have money, then you need to the ability to earn money or a skill to barter for shelter and food (one of your examples; itinerant minstrels are a trope in medi stories). That being the case you have value as a slave.
If fact there are theories that suggest the account of the performing circus troupe is about slaves; sold by Romans to the Burmese and trafficked as a commodity rather than having travelled. If I remember rightly the record of that is the Burmese king having them perform for a Chinese envoy.
I'd not heard the Terracotta Army one before though, if true, it is possibly via the same means. The Parthians would certainly have been in a position to sell slaves to the Chinese and both Parthians and Romans took countless thousands of them.
当奴隶制无处不在的时候，穷人就是被针对的商品。如果你想旅行，而你又没有钱，那么你就需要有赚钱的能力，或者有以物易物的技能来换取住处和食物（你的一个例子，流动吟游诗人是中世纪故事中的一个特例）。既然如此，你作为奴隶就有价值。
如果是事实，这里有一些理论表明，表演马戏团的描述是关于奴隶的；这些奴隶被罗马人卖给缅甸人，是作为商品贩卖，而不是旅行过去的。如果我没记错的话，记录的是缅甸国王让他们为中国使节表演。
不过兵马俑那个我以前没听说过，如果是真的，可能是通过同样的手段。帕提亚人肯定会有卖奴隶给中国人的条件，帕提亚人和罗马人都带走了无数的奴隶。
Intranetusa
Greek/Bactrian artisans who many now believe designed the terracotta warriors.
No, that was just a hypothesis thought up by a single guy. From what I understand, mainstream academia doesn't accept this to be true and there are a lot of holes in this idea. The silk road wasn't even established until Han emperor Wudi sent armies into Ferghana (which is more than a century after the terra cotta warriors). Before this time, the Han Empire's borders were nowhere near Central Asia or Bactria (thousands of miles away) and any traveler would have had to journey though territory controlled by hostile steppe tribes, independent city states, and vast deserts. And the terra cotta statues are built in a completely different way than Greco-Roman statues, with no evidence of such construction types in the Mediterranean. And IIRC, the guy who thought of the idea based it partially on the fact that Indo-European remains have been found in Western China, so he thought they were Greco-Persians. But this is ignorance to the fact that Indo-Europeans are actually native inhabitants of Western China and have lived there for thousands of years (eg. Tocharians) without any relationship to the Greeks or Greco-Persians.
There has been past historical trend of "biases" to attribute stuff that happens to resemble Greco-Roman stuff to the Greco-Romans themselves - some scholars decades ago used to think ancient MesoAmerican statutes were also made by the Greeks and Romans because they happened to resemble the Greco-Roman statues.
“现在许多人认为他们设计了兵马俑。”
不，这只是一个人想出来的假说。据我了解，主流学术界并不接受这个说法，而且这个想法有很多漏洞。直到汉武帝派军队进入费尔干纳（这比兵马俑晚了一个多世纪），丝绸之路才得以建立。在这之前，汉帝国的边界远在中亚或巴克特里亚（数千英里之外），任何旅行者都必须穿越由敌对的草原部落、独立的城邦和广阔的沙漠控制的领土。而兵马俑的建造方式与希腊罗马雕像完全不同，没有证据表明地中海地区有这种建造类型。而且据我所知，想出这个想法的人，部分依据是在中国西部发现了印欧人的遗迹，所以他认为他们是希腊波斯人。但这是对印欧人其实是中国西部的土著居民，并且已经在那里生活了几千年（例如，吐火罗人。注：即大月氏），与希腊人或希腊波斯人没有任何关系这一事实的无知。
过去历史上曾有 "偏见"的趋势，把那些恰好与希腊罗马人的东西相似的东西归结为希腊罗马人自己的东西--几十年前有些学者曾经认为古代中美洲人的雕像也是希腊人和罗马人制造的，因为他们恰好与希腊罗马人的雕像相似。
Greek/Bactrian artisans who many now believe designed the terracotta warriors.
No, that was just a hypothesis thought up by a single guy. From what I understand, mainstream academia doesn't accept this to be true and there are a lot of holes in this idea. The silk road wasn't even established until Han emperor Wudi sent armies into Ferghana (which is more than a century after the terra cotta warriors). Before this time, the Han Empire's borders were nowhere near Central Asia or Bactria (thousands of miles away) and any traveler would have had to journey though territory controlled by hostile steppe tribes, independent city states, and vast deserts. And the terra cotta statues are built in a completely different way than Greco-Roman statues, with no evidence of such construction types in the Mediterranean. And IIRC, the guy who thought of the idea based it partially on the fact that Indo-European remains have been found in Western China, so he thought they were Greco-Persians. But this is ignorance to the fact that Indo-Europeans are actually native inhabitants of Western China and have lived there for thousands of years (eg. Tocharians) without any relationship to the Greeks or Greco-Persians.
There has been past historical trend of "biases" to attribute stuff that happens to resemble Greco-Roman stuff to the Greco-Romans themselves - some scholars decades ago used to think ancient MesoAmerican statutes were also made by the Greeks and Romans because they happened to resemble the Greco-Roman statues.
“现在许多人认为他们设计了兵马俑。”
不，这只是一个人想出来的假说。据我了解，主流学术界并不接受这个说法，而且这个想法有很多漏洞。直到汉武帝派军队进入费尔干纳（这比兵马俑晚了一个多世纪），丝绸之路才得以建立。在这之前，汉帝国的边界远在中亚或巴克特里亚（数千英里之外），任何旅行者都必须穿越由敌对的草原部落、独立的城邦和广阔的沙漠控制的领土。而兵马俑的建造方式与希腊罗马雕像完全不同，没有证据表明地中海地区有这种建造类型。而且据我所知，想出这个想法的人，部分依据是在中国西部发现了印欧人的遗迹，所以他认为他们是希腊波斯人。但这是对印欧人其实是中国西部的土著居民，并且已经在那里生活了几千年（例如，吐火罗人。注：即大月氏），与希腊人或希腊波斯人没有任何关系这一事实的无知。
过去历史上曾有 "偏见"的趋势，把那些恰好与希腊罗马人的东西相似的东西归结为希腊罗马人自己的东西--几十年前有些学者曾经认为古代中美洲人的雕像也是希腊人和罗马人制造的，因为他们恰好与希腊罗马人的雕像相似。
mbattagl
The Romans were aware that the Chinese could produce silk, but never learned their methods due to China making it a state secret essential to their trading commodities.
Spoiler alx!!! They used silk worms.
罗马人知道中国人可以生产丝绸，但由于中国将其列为国家机密，对他们的贸易商品至关重要，所以一直没有学会他们的方法。
剧透警告！! 他们用的是蚕丝。
The Romans were aware that the Chinese could produce silk, but never learned their methods due to China making it a state secret essential to their trading commodities.
Spoiler alx!!! They used silk worms.
罗马人知道中国人可以生产丝绸，但由于中国将其列为国家机密，对他们的贸易商品至关重要，所以一直没有学会他们的方法。
剧透警告！! 他们用的是蚕丝。
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